Mons Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:23 pm GMT
Only by some old speakers in Rio Grande do Sul close to Urugayan border
I don´t think so.
Only by some old speakers in Rio Grande do Sul close to Urugayan border
I don´t think so.
how does PORTUGUESE [pt] sound to you?
Firstly you should learn what ł is and that it´s different both from l and u.
Meijse
««In English, one says CONTINENTAL PORTUGUESE (vs BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE) not
IBERIAN, EUROPEAN or LUSITANIAN PORTUGUESE, but CONTINENTAL. »»
Where you got that idea? Unless most universities are wrong Iberian and European Portuguese are used to name the Portuguese spoken in Portugal.
There is a course of European Portuguese in the University of Glasgow.
Universities like Cambridge or Maryland also use "European Portuguese".
"Iberian Portuguese" appears in many studies. Only "Lusitanian Portuguese" is not common but it is not wrong.
Joey:
««Don't forget that Galician is a dialect of Portuguese, that means there are two types of Portuguese in the Iberian Peninsula, so when referring to Iberian Portuguese it can get confusing to which type of Portuguese you are talking about, from Portugal or Spain.»»
There are many types of Portuguese or dialects spoken in Portugal. Galician is spoken in north Portugal and is Portuguese from Portugal too. One does not have to go to Spain to listen to Galician. Iberian Portuguese is Portuguese no matter the dialect. Even when people say Galician to differentiate the dialects spoken in Portugal or Spain , one can be speaking of the Galician spoken in Portugal.
««In English, one says CONTINENTAL PORTUGUESE (vs BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE) not
IBERIAN, EUROPEAN or LUSITANIAN PORTUGUESE, but CONTINENTAL. »»
Where you got that idea? Unless most universities are wrong Iberian and European Portuguese are used to name the Portuguese spoken in Portugal.
There is a course of European Portuguese in the University of Glasgow.
Universities like Cambridge or Maryland also use "European Portuguese".
"Iberian Portuguese" appears in many studies. Only "Lusitanian Portuguese" is not common but it is not wrong.
Joey:
««Don't forget that Galician is a dialect of Portuguese, that means there are two types of Portuguese in the Iberian Peninsula, so when referring to Iberian Portuguese it can get confusing to which type of Portuguese you are talking about, from Portugal or Spain.»»
There are many types of Portuguese or dialects spoken in Portugal. Galician is spoken in north Portugal and is Portuguese from Portugal too. One does not have to go to Spain to listen to Galician. Iberian Portuguese is Portuguese no matter the dialect. Even when people say Galician to differentiate the dialects spoken in Portugal or Spain , one can be speaking of the Galician spoken in Portugal.
Just found this discussion by change, and just wanted to add an anedoctical evindence. Some years ago I was reading and listening to a music TV channel when a rock band started playing. I was distracted by it because - since I wasn't paying attention - I had assumed it was a portuguese band but I wasn't really understanding it. It was a strange thing, the sounds were all there, the cadence was there, so I had to come close to the TV to see what was wrong... well, as you can imagine, it was a Catalan band playing.
It was really weird, it was like hearing a portuguese making up phonetically plausible words :). Latter on I worked with people that spoke catalan, and the sounds and rhytm are indeed very similar, especially constrating with spanish (which has a different cadence altogether).
It was really weird, it was like hearing a portuguese making up phonetically plausible words :). Latter on I worked with people that spoke catalan, and the sounds and rhytm are indeed very similar, especially constrating with spanish (which has a different cadence altogether).
<<Iberians died out a long time ago and I doubt they ever spoke Portuguese.>>
Actually, they didn't. "Iberian" simply means "a person of Iberia", the Iberian Peninsula. This would include Spaniards and Portuguese. Both Spaniards and Portuguese are Iberians.
But as far as what Portuguese sounds like, I must say, for as similar as it looks to Spanish on paper, hearing it in spoken form sounds suprisingly different. I hear a ton of nasal sounds, and "sh" sounds all the time.
Actually, they didn't. "Iberian" simply means "a person of Iberia", the Iberian Peninsula. This would include Spaniards and Portuguese. Both Spaniards and Portuguese are Iberians.
But as far as what Portuguese sounds like, I must say, for as similar as it looks to Spanish on paper, hearing it in spoken form sounds suprisingly different. I hear a ton of nasal sounds, and "sh" sounds all the time.
LAA
««I hear a ton of nasal sounds, and "sh" sounds all the time. »»
How hard it would be for you, to have a conversation with a Portuguese speaker, assuming the other person did not speak a word of spanish?
How hard you think it would be for someone that is not fluent in spanish, and has only the average knowledge of spanish that most non native have, to have such a conversation?
««I hear a ton of nasal sounds, and "sh" sounds all the time. »»
How hard it would be for you, to have a conversation with a Portuguese speaker, assuming the other person did not speak a word of spanish?
How hard you think it would be for someone that is not fluent in spanish, and has only the average knowledge of spanish that most non native have, to have such a conversation?
<< Actually, they didn't. "Iberian" simply means "a person of Iberia", the Iberian Peninsula. This would include Spaniards and Portuguese. Both Spaniards and Portuguese are Iberians.
But as far as what Portuguese sounds like, I must say, for as similar as it looks to Spanish on paper, hearing it in spoken form sounds suprisingly different. I hear a ton of nasal sounds, and "sh" sounds all the time.>>
Ok LAA the French are of the Gallic, the British of the britons, the German of the Gothic, the Italian of the Romans, the American of the Sioux, the Swedish of the Viking, and the Iranian of the persians...
But as far as what Portuguese sounds like, I must say, for as similar as it looks to Spanish on paper, hearing it in spoken form sounds suprisingly different. I hear a ton of nasal sounds, and "sh" sounds all the time.>>
Ok LAA the French are of the Gallic, the British of the britons, the German of the Gothic, the Italian of the Romans, the American of the Sioux, the Swedish of the Viking, and the Iranian of the persians...
<< Actually, they didn't. "Iberian" simply means "a person of Iberia", the Iberian Peninsula. This would include Spaniards and Portuguese. Both Spaniards and Portuguese are Iberians.
But as far as what Portuguese sounds like, I must say, for as similar as it looks to Spanish on paper, hearing it in spoken form sounds suprisingly different. I hear a ton of nasal sounds, and "sh" sounds all the time.>>
Ok LAA the French are of the Gallic, the British of the britons, the German of the Gothic, the Italian of the Romans, the American of the Sioux, the Swedish of the Viking, and the Iranian of the persians...
But as far as what Portuguese sounds like, I must say, for as similar as it looks to Spanish on paper, hearing it in spoken form sounds suprisingly different. I hear a ton of nasal sounds, and "sh" sounds all the time.>>
Ok LAA the French are of the Gallic, the British of the britons, the German of the Gothic, the Italian of the Romans, the American of the Sioux, the Swedish of the Viking, and the Iranian of the persians...
Continental Portuguese (standard portuguese) sounds 'normal' to me since i'm portuguese living in Lisbon.
There aint's such portuguese spoken in Galiza, they speak galician along with castilian. Some of them actually understand portuguese and speak portuguese but that's just a thing educated people do, nothing else. In fact galician and portuguese share the same roots and took 2 different ways of evolution. One, portuguese, without any influences the other, galician, with some influences, phonetic, words taken from castilian.
In Portugal we speak only portuguese with at least 4 distinct accents (regions) plus 2 more in Azores and Madeira archipelagos.
Actually we have another official language spoken in the northen east part of Portugal wich is mirandese. About 30.000 people understand that language and about 10.000 of them can actually talk. It's been official since 1998(?) and it's being studied by the new generation. That language share the same roots as the now extinguished leonese/aragonese, now in the kindgom of spain.
Standard portuguese has a very big phonetic amplitude, we understand and can reproduce almost all phonetic words from other languages. We dont use the spanish 'j' but we can just spell it like they spell. Some regions of portugal pronounce the 'u' just like the french do. It's so easy for a portuguese to speak spanish, every vowal is a open one.
Portuguese is a romance language spoken in all continents, the way to pronounce it's different from each region, yet the writing can be almost the same and follow the same grammar. No big deal. No one owns portuguese language.
If you want to learn 'any' portuguese, my advice is, find a portuguese teacher. Portuguese can be very hard to understand even for a portuguese :)
There aint's such portuguese spoken in Galiza, they speak galician along with castilian. Some of them actually understand portuguese and speak portuguese but that's just a thing educated people do, nothing else. In fact galician and portuguese share the same roots and took 2 different ways of evolution. One, portuguese, without any influences the other, galician, with some influences, phonetic, words taken from castilian.
In Portugal we speak only portuguese with at least 4 distinct accents (regions) plus 2 more in Azores and Madeira archipelagos.
Actually we have another official language spoken in the northen east part of Portugal wich is mirandese. About 30.000 people understand that language and about 10.000 of them can actually talk. It's been official since 1998(?) and it's being studied by the new generation. That language share the same roots as the now extinguished leonese/aragonese, now in the kindgom of spain.
Standard portuguese has a very big phonetic amplitude, we understand and can reproduce almost all phonetic words from other languages. We dont use the spanish 'j' but we can just spell it like they spell. Some regions of portugal pronounce the 'u' just like the french do. It's so easy for a portuguese to speak spanish, every vowal is a open one.
Portuguese is a romance language spoken in all continents, the way to pronounce it's different from each region, yet the writing can be almost the same and follow the same grammar. No big deal. No one owns portuguese language.
If you want to learn 'any' portuguese, my advice is, find a portuguese teacher. Portuguese can be very hard to understand even for a portuguese :)
Continental Portuguese sounds strange.
Portuguese people have neglected all the vocality Classical Portuguese used to have and opted for schwa and scha-like sounds, much more used in Semitic Languages than in Romanic languages.
Brazilian Portuguese is closer to Classical Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese is advised to use when reading classical poets out lout, like Camões, because Brazilian Portuguese keeps the original metric.
Portuguese people have neglected all the vocality Classical Portuguese used to have and opted for schwa and scha-like sounds, much more used in Semitic Languages than in Romanic languages.
Brazilian Portuguese is closer to Classical Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese is advised to use when reading classical poets out lout, like Camões, because Brazilian Portuguese keeps the original metric.
João
««Continental Portuguese (standard portuguese) sounds 'normal' to me since i'm portuguese living in Lisbon.»»
And continental Portuguese would not sound normal to whom?
«« Some of them actually understand portuguese and speak portuguese but that's just a thing educated people do, nothing else.»»
To speak Portuguese in Galicia is to be educated?
My, there are lots of educated people in Galicia.
««In Portugal we speak only portuguese with at least 4 distinct accents (regions) plus 2 more in Azores and Madeira archipelagos.»»
Galician-Portuguese in Portugal:
15,000 in Tras Os Montes (1994 D. and N. Burns).
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=PT
No use trying to say otherwise. Galician-Portuguese is spoken until today.
««Standard portuguese has a very big phonetic amplitude, we understand and can reproduce almost all phonetic words from other languages.»»
Now, don't go exagerating!!
««It's so easy for a portuguese to speak spanish, every vowal is a open one. »»
You want to say Portunhol, not Spanish.
««If you want to learn 'any' portuguese, my advice is, find a portuguese teacher. »»
My advise: Go ahead, it is as easy to learn Portuguese as it is to learn any other romance language. I know people that learned on their own and are doing pretty good.
««Portuguese can be very hard to understand even for a portuguese :)»»
:) You mean for a Spanish speaker.
««Continental Portuguese (standard portuguese) sounds 'normal' to me since i'm portuguese living in Lisbon.»»
And continental Portuguese would not sound normal to whom?
«« Some of them actually understand portuguese and speak portuguese but that's just a thing educated people do, nothing else.»»
To speak Portuguese in Galicia is to be educated?
My, there are lots of educated people in Galicia.
««In Portugal we speak only portuguese with at least 4 distinct accents (regions) plus 2 more in Azores and Madeira archipelagos.»»
Galician-Portuguese in Portugal:
15,000 in Tras Os Montes (1994 D. and N. Burns).
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=PT
No use trying to say otherwise. Galician-Portuguese is spoken until today.
««Standard portuguese has a very big phonetic amplitude, we understand and can reproduce almost all phonetic words from other languages.»»
Now, don't go exagerating!!
««It's so easy for a portuguese to speak spanish, every vowal is a open one. »»
You want to say Portunhol, not Spanish.
««If you want to learn 'any' portuguese, my advice is, find a portuguese teacher. »»
My advise: Go ahead, it is as easy to learn Portuguese as it is to learn any other romance language. I know people that learned on their own and are doing pretty good.
««Portuguese can be very hard to understand even for a portuguese :)»»
:) You mean for a Spanish speaker.
And continental Portuguese would not sound normal to whom?
-Well for some people in this forum :P
To speak Portuguese in Galicia is to be educated?
My, there are lots of educated people in Galicia.
-what i meant back there it's just not understand and speak, but knowing the grammar and write correctly too.
I find that map very interesting there, really! But i can show you another map http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/hlp/geografia/mapa02.html that doesnt say galician, and of course its not :P
««It's so easy for a portuguese to speak spanish, every vowal is a open one. »»
Well ok, I was talking for myself :) but we can actually understand spanish, something like norwegian and swedish/danish
Anyway are you portuguese Gringo?
cheers
-Well for some people in this forum :P
To speak Portuguese in Galicia is to be educated?
My, there are lots of educated people in Galicia.
-what i meant back there it's just not understand and speak, but knowing the grammar and write correctly too.
I find that map very interesting there, really! But i can show you another map http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/hlp/geografia/mapa02.html that doesnt say galician, and of course its not :P
««It's so easy for a portuguese to speak spanish, every vowal is a open one. »»
Well ok, I was talking for myself :) but we can actually understand spanish, something like norwegian and swedish/danish
Anyway are you portuguese Gringo?
cheers
Nova Scotia:
««Continental Portuguese sounds strange.
Portuguese people have neglected all the vocality Classical Portuguese used to have and opted for schwa and scha-like sounds, much more used in Semitic Languages than in Romanic languages. »»
And of course you can provide some sound samples of the vocalic Classical Portuguese.
««Brazilian Portuguese is closer to Classical Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese is advised to use when reading classical poets out lout, like Camões, because Brazilian Portuguese keeps the original metric.»»
Start practising reading Camões:
AUTO CHAMADO DE FILODEMO
Senhor, sim.
Se m'ela não traz a mim,
vejo lh'eu
ruim maneira.
[..]
Senhora, não hajais medo;
contai m'isso, e far m'hei mudo.
~Luis Vaz de Camões
««Brazilian Portuguese keeps the original metric»» haha. Very funny.
Semitic language? You mean that Hanibal taught the western Celtiberians to speak Punic?
««Continental Portuguese sounds strange.
Portuguese people have neglected all the vocality Classical Portuguese used to have and opted for schwa and scha-like sounds, much more used in Semitic Languages than in Romanic languages. »»
And of course you can provide some sound samples of the vocalic Classical Portuguese.
««Brazilian Portuguese is closer to Classical Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese is advised to use when reading classical poets out lout, like Camões, because Brazilian Portuguese keeps the original metric.»»
Start practising reading Camões:
AUTO CHAMADO DE FILODEMO
Senhor, sim.
Se m'ela não traz a mim,
vejo lh'eu
ruim maneira.
[..]
Senhora, não hajais medo;
contai m'isso, e far m'hei mudo.
~Luis Vaz de Camões
««Brazilian Portuguese keeps the original metric»» haha. Very funny.
Semitic language? You mean that Hanibal taught the western Celtiberians to speak Punic?
««I find that map very interesting there, really! But i can show you another map http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/hlp/geografia/mapa02.html that doesnt say galician, and of course its not :P»»
So, in Portugal it is spoken only by phantoms? Ok, call it Galician–Portuguese, in Portugal it is just called…Portuguese, blame D. Dinis.
Some people also say that “Galician-Portuguese” is extinct, but a Spaniard official web page of the town of Corcubiom (Galicia) gives you the option of selecting … Galician, English or Galician-Portuguese :
http://www.corcubion.info/index.html
When you are in the Galician-Portuguese page you can select Galician:
http://www.corcubion.info/gl-pt/
Haha, what have they done? Now, there is Galician and Galician-Portuguese. One way or the other, even the official pages find a creative manner of having their own way :P
It is not nice to pretend it does not exist, not even in Portugal :P
So, in Portugal it is spoken only by phantoms? Ok, call it Galician–Portuguese, in Portugal it is just called…Portuguese, blame D. Dinis.
Some people also say that “Galician-Portuguese” is extinct, but a Spaniard official web page of the town of Corcubiom (Galicia) gives you the option of selecting … Galician, English or Galician-Portuguese :
http://www.corcubion.info/index.html
When you are in the Galician-Portuguese page you can select Galician:
http://www.corcubion.info/gl-pt/
Haha, what have they done? Now, there is Galician and Galician-Portuguese. One way or the other, even the official pages find a creative manner of having their own way :P
It is not nice to pretend it does not exist, not even in Portugal :P