Help for an English speaker w/ German and Dutch

LAA   Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:09 pm GMT
I have been told that basic vocabulary is very similar between English and the other West Germanic languages. An example would be, and forgive my spelling, "Ich bin ein Berliner", "I am a Berliner". But, for an English speaker, these words are so different as to not even be recognizable as having come from the same origin. But I have been told that if you know a few rules, you are able to see past the differences between English and the other West Germanic languages, and truly appreciate how similar the languages in fact are. I would like to know "those few basic principles" so I could hopefully understand or catch more of German and Dutch basic level vocabulary.
Sander   Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:31 pm GMT
There are no real tricks, some are obvious others aren't. I can give you some advise though

Thinking in archaic terms can help, in the way that "Thou be'st" looks more like German "Du bist" than modern English "You are".

Sometimes thinking in "simple terms/basic vocabulary" helps, like in figuring out that "mishandeling" means "abuse" in Dutch. (lit. miss handling)

In the case of Frisian hearing the language will help you find cognates far faster than trying to read it. As West Frisian is (mostly) written in phonetical Dutch. This way you'll hear that "butter, bree en griene tjiss " sounds almost identical to "butter, bread and green cheese".

Also, in some cases you have to think broad, when looking for the Dutch translation of "wrong" think about everything (of germanic origine) that could mean the same or somewhat the same ... this way you'll see that "fault" is a cognate of Dutch "fout" meaning "wrong".
LAA   Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:54 pm GMT
Well, I appreciate that information, but some of those common sense tools I knew already. But I was hoping for something along the lines which showed me how a tweak of a couple of letters makes the cognate look very similar to the English one. For instance, between French and Spanish, there is a rule for all words which end in "-tion" in French. Any word in French which ends in "-tion", is simply changed to "-cion" in Spanish. Like French "Information", and Spanish "Informacion". Also, between Spanish and Italian, many words are revealed to be the exact same, if you only tweak or remove a letter here and there. For instance, many times Spanish will replace an Italian "o" with "ea". As in Italian "buono" and Spanish "bueno".

I'm looking for principles similar to that between English and Dutch/German. And I realize that these are not always bullet-proof principles.
Sander   Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:09 am GMT
In that case (for German) I'd recommend turning back the High German Consonant Shift.

Mainly:
ff → p | so "Schiff" becomes "schip" (Ship)
pf→p | so "Apfel" becomes "Appel" (Apple)
zz→t | so "essen" becomes "eten" (to eat, cf. eaten)
tz→t | so "Katze" becomes "Kate" (cat)
hh→k | so "machen" becomes "maken" (to make)
t→d | so "Vater" becomes "Vader" (father)
d→th/þ | so "Dorn" becomes "Thorn" (thorn)
LAA   Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:22 am GMT
Yes, exactly the sort of help I wanted. Thank you. Anything else along those lines? Maybe for vowels, or phonetics which I wouldn't recognize based on spelling?
zxczxc   Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:53 am GMT
Quite a few of the verbs are the same, and the vowels in them inflect in the same way, e.g. singen (to sing) -> singt, sang, gesungen and schwimmen (to swim) -> schwimmt, schwamm, geschwummen.

LAA, I find it strange that you could never hear the similarities... I always could when I was younger. Probably just me.
Benjamin   Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:11 am GMT
To add to Sander's list, I'd also suggest this:

ch -> gh

...although that has nothing to do with the consonant shift, merely spelling conventions and the loss of [x] in English. For example, 'Licht' is the German for 'light'.

« LAA, I find it strange that you could never hear the similarities... I always could when I was younger. Probably just me. »

My experience regarding this is rather strange. I always used to assume that English and Dutch were very similar, perhaps even mutually intelligible, because I used to somehow be able to read Dutch, even though I'd never learnt it. Up until I was about 13, I'd often visit Dutch websites and was able to read and understand most of it fairly well. Obviously it was still easier to read websites in English, but if it was in Dutch, it was like the next best thing. I remember directing English speakers on internet forums at the time to Dutch websites under the assumption that they'd be able to understand it, only for them to respond that they didn't understand that language.

But when I was about 13, I suddenly lost this supernatural ability. Perhaps the reason as to why I could understand it was because I'd psychologically convinced myself that I could; but when you get passed a certain age, reason-based thinking takes over. Or, whilst I was younger, I'd able to sort of assimilate a passive knowledge of written Dutch through reading, similar to how babies learn their native language — an ability which one generally loses after a certain age.

It's weird though. I've been looking at Dutch quite a lot recently, and it all seems strangely familiar — and not just because of my knowledge of other languages. Maybe past lives has something to do with it.
Guest   Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:58 am GMT
<<ff → p | so "Schiff" becomes "schip" (Ship)
pf→p | so "Apfel" becomes "Appel" (Apple)
zz→t | so "essen" becomes "eten" (to eat, cf. eaten)
tz→t | so "Katze" becomes "Kate" (cat)
hh→k | so "machen" becomes "maken" (to make)
t→d | so "Vater" becomes "Vader" (father)
d→th/þ | so "Dorn" becomes "Thorn" (thorn) >>

Another one that could be added to the list, although it is not part of the High German Sound Shift.

English 'y' - German 'g'. For example 'Yellow - gelb', 'yard - garten', 'day - tag' etc.
Benjamin   Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:47 am GMT
'Guest' is sort of right. Something else I've often noticed, at least on the ends of words:

-ag -> -ay
-ig -> -y

I find it very interesting that Guest attempted to show a similarity between the German 'garten' and the English 'yard'. Surely the English 'garden' would be a much closer equivalent of 'garten'?
Guest   Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:35 pm GMT
<<I find it very interesting that Guest attempted to show a similarity between the German 'garten' and the English 'yard'. Surely the English 'garden' would be a much closer equivalent of 'garten'? >>

I used 'yard' because it is the native word for 'garden' and it better shows how sound changes have affected two related words in different languages. It shows how in some words in English, 'g' softened into a 'y' sound and also how in German 'd' became 't'. Change the 'g' and the 't' in the German word and it becomes 'yarden' which kind of shows how related the words are.
greg   Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:46 pm GMT
LAA : « I have been told that basic vocabulary is very similar between English and the other West Germanic languages. »

Si on prend le pourcentage traditionnellement avancé ici à Antimoon, le vocabulaire anglais de base serait gréco-franco-latin à 30 % et donc germanique à 70 % — auxquels il faut retrancher tous les emprunts au vieux-norrois (une langue germanique septentrionale) pour obtenir la part du germanique occidental dans le vocabulaire anglais de base.



Par exemple :

—> dans les 30 % gréco-franco-latin : <cost> & <face>.

—> dans les 70 % germaniques : <day> (germanique occidental) & <take> (germanique septentrional).
Sander   Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:35 pm GMT
>>My experience regarding this is rather strange. I always used to assume that English and Dutch were very similar, perhaps even mutually intelligible, because I used to somehow be able to read Dutch, even though I'd never learnt it. Up until I was about 13, I'd often visit Dutch websites and was able to read and understand most of it fairly well. <<

The reason why you think this is because Dutch looks more like English. The absence of the HGCS is the main reason, my experiences with English speakers is that when they hear spoken Dutch and spoken German ... German usually makes more sense to them.
Benjamin   Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:33 pm GMT
Oh yes, definitely. I basically learnt to understand conversational German simply by being in Germany for three weeks (okay, so I was doing an intensive language course at the time). I certainly can't understand much spoken Dutch. I can't read it anymore either.
zxczxc   Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:41 pm GMT
I can still read quite a lot of Dutch, but perhaps not quite as well as I used to. Benjamin, I think it may have something to do with learning the more Germanic words in English first, rather than the Latinate ones, and then identifying them in other languages, such as Dutch. Then when you learn the Latinates and use them more as you grow older and become more educated you get a new prescription for you eyesight, as it were, and miss those ones but notice others in French or whatever.
LAA   Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:49 pm GMT
<<I find it very interesting that Guest attempted to show a similarity between the German 'garten' and the English 'yard'. Surely the English 'garden' would be a much closer equivalent of 'garten'? >>

Yes, and as a side point, I always thought that "yard" was the original Germanic term in English, while "garden" was borrowed from French "jardin". I've always assumed that it was an example of English's rich vocabulary, with yet another option for the same word. One from Latin, one from Germanic.