A concept of time

engtense   Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:28 pm GMT
I am not creating time, but old grammars have missed a concept of time. "Last Week" is a past time, and "Now" is a present time. But what about the time between last week and now? It has no name, and Present Perfect is used to indicate things FINISHED in this time zone. Who has found out this concept of time and tell you clearly? This is the whole point in my website. Accuse me if another one has pointed it out before.

www.englishtense.com
Guest   Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:02 pm GMT
You'll have to give some examples why this is of concern, since I, and I suspect other native English speakers, wonder why any of this matters.
engtense   Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:11 pm GMT
If you don't find it important. Then it doesn't matter. I just found it.
Guest   Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:14 pm GMT
I'll rephrase: I don't find it important because I understand what you're getting at. A few examples might explain your idea better, perhaps by using some kind of connection to the way such grammar might be expressed in your native language.
Guest   Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:16 pm GMT
The above should read: because I >don't< understand
engtense   Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:18 pm GMT
>>You'll have to give some examples why this is of concern, since I, and I suspect other native English speakers, wonder why any of this matters.<<

This means you don't see it elsewhere. That's fine for me. Maybe it is really not important.

www.englishtense.com
George   Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:37 pm GMT
I don't know how to explain this concept of time but in the following example, the words "had been" expresses the time between last week to present.

Today is my day off from work -- now. All last week I worked in a hardware store -- last week. I had been stocking shelves and answering the phone -- actions that took place during the week.
Geoff_One   Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:01 pm GMT
Engtense:

An attempt at an example (I am not that familar with grammatical terms):

Since the end of last week, I have worked on my tax return from time to time.

Therefore, the name of the time zone is "Since the end of last week" , "From the end of last week until now" or "During the time between the end of last week and now" etc. Someone may step forward and describe this time zone more concisely.
Geoff_One   Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:28 pm GMT
The last sentence plus an addition to it:

Someone may step forward and describe this time zone more concisely and/or crisply.
engtense   Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:29 pm GMT
>>Today is my day off from work -- now. All last week I worked in a hardware store -- last week. I had been stocking shelves and answering the phone -- actions that took place during the week.<<

But every example here has explicit time. The time span I pointed out in the beginning post has no name -- not NOW, LAST WEEK, or DURING THE WEEK.

-------------------
>> Since the end of last week, I have worked on my tax return from time to time.

Therefore, the name of the time zone is "Since the end of last week" , "From the end of last week until now" or "During the time between the end of last week and now" etc. Someone may step forward and describe this time zone more concisely. <<

What about the time span with no name? I mean what if the time is not clearly expressed? With the time not expressed, can you tell me the difference between Simple Past and Present Perfect -- a question that troubles both students and scholars? Or do we really not know about this problem at all?

www.englishtense.com
engtense   Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:49 pm GMT
>>Someone may step forward and describe this time zone more concisely and/or crisply. <<

We have learned from grammars that, when there is a specific past time in the sentence, we use Simple Past:
Ex1: Yesterday we went to a department store.

We have also been taught that, if an action has happened in the past, but has an effect or result in the present, we use Present Perfect:
Ex2: We have bought many things.

These are the usual explanations for the two tenses. However, do grammar books tell us how to put these sentences or tenses together? As we do often express ourselves in more than one sentence, please look what happens if we put the two examples together:
Ex3: "Yesterday we went to a department store. *We have bought many things."

It doesn't sound right. It seems to us that, if putting these sentences together, we shall use Simple Past BOUGHT only, rather than Present Perfect. If this is true, are there some other rules controlling the choice of tenses? Is there something grammars have missed?

If we know the time span I pointed out above, in an easy way now, we can tell apart the different uses between Simple Past and Present Perfect, a long-term riddle that has puzzled many learners. The nuance in the uses between the two tenses can be seen only in a paragraph of sentences. There is a time for Simple Past, and a time for Present Perfect:

Ex: "Last week we went to a new department store. We bought many things. We have recommended it to Ms B."
== Simple Past BOUGHT indicates the buy happens in the same time frame of 'last week'. Present Perfect says the recommendation is outside 'last week'.

If you find it not clear enough, I would like to explain more.
Geoff_One   Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:23 pm GMT
Engtense: Presumably an example of the simple past:

I completed my tax return yesterday.

And presumably an example of what you call the present perfect:

From the end of last week until now, I have worked on my tax return
on five occasions.

>> What about the time span with no name? I mean what if the time is not clearly expressed? << These are two different things. If the time span has no name and you want to give it a name, give it one. For example - I want to consider the time period between the end of last week and now (herein after called time period ABCD). During time period ABCD, I have swum at the beach many times. Note that you did clearly express the time period/span - >> the time between last week and now <<


>> With the time not expressed, can you tell me the difference between Simple Past and Present Perfect << Perhaps by example:

What I guess you call the Simple Past:

I swam at the beach yesterday.

What I guess you call the Present Perfect:

I have swum at the beach many times.

Please note that this sort of thing is not in my area of expertise or even one of my hobbies - I had to look up the grammatical definitions for
Simple Past and Present Perfect.
Geoff_One   Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:02 pm GMT
>> Ex3: "Yesterday we went to a department store. *We have bought many things." <<

It doesn't sound right, because the first sentence implicitly prevents one from using the Present Perfect (whatever this is suppose to mean) in
the second sentence . The first sentence prevents the time period in question (herin after called time period ABCD) being extended to now so any sentence that time period ABCD applies to can't use the Present Perfect. Just after you created time period ABCD you bring on line the second sentence and this implicitly creates the idea that time period ABCD applies to this sentence. Solution - switch the sentences around.

We have bought many things. Yesterday we went to a department store.
There, I bought a TV. Earlier today, I bought 20 apples , 15 oranges and a bunch of grapes from the local fruit shop.
Geoff_One   Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:05 pm GMT
Typo Correction:
(herein after called time period ABCD)
Geoff_One   Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:13 pm GMT
Another minor change:
Just after you created time period ABCD you bring on line the second sentence and this creates the idea that time period ABCD applies to this sentence.