A concept of time

evelynandove   Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:50 pm GMT
what is the phonetic transcription of the words;
-extremism
-extrication
-characteristically
Geoff_One   Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:38 pm GMT
Engtense,
>> What assumptions have you made about myself regarding languages? <<

I am still waiting for your answer on this one.

>> What language do I like to speak and why? <<
>> You know better than I do. <<

Before you posted "You know better than I do",
I stated:

Or jung yee sick gong Saibawn ah wa.

Spanish is the world's only other grand international language and as I understand it, they have Spanish language programs on national TV in China.
Lazar   Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:46 am GMT
<<what is the phonetic transcription of the words;
-extremism
-extrication
-characteristically>>

extremism - [IkstrimIz@m]
extrication - [EkstrIkeIS@n]
characteristically - [k{r@kt@rIstIkli] or [kEr@kt@rIstIkli]
Travis   Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:02 am GMT
I myself would transcribe those, both phonemically and phonetically, as:

"extremism" : /Ik"strimIzm=/ -> [Ik."StSr\i~:.mI.zm=]
"extrication" : /Ek"strIkeSIn/ -> [Ek."StSr\I.ke.sI~n]
"characteristically" : /kerIkt@`"IstIkli/ -> [k_he.r\Ik.t@`."I.stIk.5i]
Uriel   Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:16 am GMT
<<engtense Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:20 pm GMT
Who said it is a big deal?

We just hide away past time adverbials for Present Perfect tense and then tell the students the tense doesn't stay with past time adverbials. It is not a big deal at all. >>

Uh, is there some big past-tense conspiracy that I don't know about? You seem to have a good command of the English language -- obviously your issues with "past time adverbials" aren't cramping your style any.
engtense   Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:36 am GMT
Uriel wrote:
>>Uh, is there some big past-tense conspiracy that I don't know about?<<

My reply: You use the word conspiracy, I didn't. But I always agree to adopt the term readers have got in mind. Actually, however, many readers did use this word to describe the concealment of the Past Family.

Talking of past time, how shall we define this concept of time? Is Yesterday a past time? But we always have a new Yesterday, and will also have one next weekend, which has not even started yet, so how can Yesterday be regarded a past time?

Actually, we know 22June1987 is a past time because it is gone and never comes back. But Yesterday is not, and next weekend you will still have Yesterday, so Yesterday may be not a past time. The bad thing is, English has never defined what is past time adverbial, but just vaguely calls Yesterday a "past time", even a definite past time.

Many Asian languages don't have tense at all, so Asians have only a vague concept of past time. But if English agrees to use tense to tell of time, why haven't English users spent time in defining past time at all?

Above, I take Yesterday only for an example. Similar time adverbials like Last Week, Last Year, etc. will repeat themselves forever. They are always there and we don't know how to judge them as a past time.

Admin
www.englishtense.com
Guest   Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:47 am GMT
"Uh, is there some big past-tense conspiracy that I don't know about?"

Yeah, the theme of this thread seems to be the "past-tense conspiracy"! (I think the creator has a screw loose somewhere in the ol' cognitive cogs.)
Someone   Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:50 am GMT
I understand what you're saying, but it's irrelevant. While the yesterday of next Monday may be the future, the word "yesterday" when used as a time adverbial always means the day before the present day, and as such refers to the past.

For example, if "Yesterday, I went to the store." were said on August 19th, it would have meant that the person saying had gone to the store on August 18th.
Someone   Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:51 am GMT
*the person saying _it_ had gone
Geoff_One   Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:01 am GMT
Engtense,

>> Many Asian languages don't have tense at all, <<

By this do you mean that you don't conjugate the
verbs in Chinese Cantonese? I could be wrong and you
would be able to tell me, but aren't the following; examples
of different tenses in Cantonese of the verb to drink - yum?

Or yum soy.
I drink water.

Tow sin, or yum soy.
Just now, I am drinking water.

Yee ga, Or yum soy.
Now, I drink water

Or yum joh (jaw) soy.
I drank water.
I have drunk water.

Or yum gunn soy.
I am drinking water.

Or wooi yum soy.
I will drink water.
engtense   Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:40 pm GMT
Someone wrote:
>>While the yesterday of next Monday may be the future...<<

My reply: No, this Yesterday is still a past time, because it compares with next Monday. It is no more than "the past day of next Monday". This has been explained in my book. Past and present are comparative. Without a present time, you don't have past, and vice versa. Without comparison, you cannot define what is past or present.

You may ask, so what? Tenses shall be explained by comparison -- by at least two sentences. This is the main idea preached in my website. While old grammars use only one sentence to explain tense, I use a paragraph of sentences. In this thread ahead, therefore, you may see I said the following to Geoff_One:

'.....I guess this is the way how the old grammars explain the time span between the end of last week and now. I clearly said it has no name, and old grammars would put in a name, so that the time is still mentionable. I have to use a few sentences to realize the time span:
Ex: "Last week we went to a new department store. We bought many things. We have recommended it to Ms B."
== Present Perfect is used to say things finished between Last Week and Now.'

My question "Is Yesterday a past time?" is designed to bring out the reason why we have to explain tenses with a paragraph of sentences. On one-sentence basis, you see no time relations between sentences, so you can only explain the sentence itself, confusing the tense with the sentence. As the sentence expresses meanings, people have found tenses expressing a lot of meanings: Habit, Routine, Permanency, Result, Experience, Current Reference, Annoyance, You-name-it. This is wrong.
engtense   Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:19 pm GMT
Geoff_One wrote:
> Or yum joh (jaw) soy.
> I drank water.
> I have drunk water.

My reply: Tenses are used to tell the time relations between sentences. On one-sentence basis, however, we Chinese have to use adverbs such as Just or Already, your Joh or Jaw here, to match the tense clumsily. They are not tenses, as a matter of fact. You may visit any Chinese news website. As we reported a past case, how many Joh or Jaw we will use? None! So where is Chinese tense?

One-sentence basis, as your examples above, is a wrong basis to explain tenses. Unfortunately, in learning tense, many Chinese learners are forced to adopt this wrong basis. However, eventually we have to put sentences together. While English can use past tense in every sentence to report a past case, can Chinese use Already/Joh in every sentence? Of course not. The frequency Chinese use Joh is as same as you use Already. So, must you call Already/Joh a tense in Chinese?
Guest   Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:28 pm GMT
>> During the past three months, I have practiced juggling many times.

If I say this to a group of people, it invites the question from them - Can you give us a demonstration? All those individual practices during the past three months can readily consolidate and manifest themselves into a juggling display in the present. The juggling display in the present would not be possible if any of the individual practices had been missed. <<

The present is impacted upon in the above example.

Yesterday, I practiced my juggling.

If I say this to a group of people who I know, they are likely to think
that it isn't worth asking me for a juggling demonstration because there is not likely to be any improvement since last time they saw me juggle.

The present is not impacted upon in this example.
Geoff_One   Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:39 pm GMT
The guest above is myself
engtense   Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:41 pm GMT
> The present is impacted upon in the above example.
> The present is not impacted upon in this example.

My reply: Anything you say now has impact upon now. However, of course, now a new term "impact" is ushered in, and only you can judge what is impacted and what is not.

In my website, I maintain tense is time. I use two notions of time, past and present, to explain any tenses. As for an action, past and present mean finished or unfinished respectively. Therefore, the four terms -- past, present, finished, and unfinished -- are all I have to use to explain tenses. I have forsaken meanings like Habit, Routine, Permanency, Result, Experience, Current Reference, Annoyance, You-name-it. I don't need the term Impact, either.

www.englishtense.com