European Languages - A Comparative Analysis

Yes, of course.

It's fascinating that you don't really hear a difference between 'think' and 'sink' in English. French people almost always pronounce /th/ as a 's' or 'z' sounds in English, but up until now, I had assumed that they *knew* they were saying it wrong but were simply unable to make the sound. But now, it seems that it's because they sound very similar to them (you).

Actually though, not all English dialects have the typical 'th' sound. Many native English speakers would instead pronounce 'I think that' as 'I fink vat' or 'I tink dat'.

Hi Benjamin and fab,

I will try to clarify the Latinamerican perspective of these sounds.

In Latinamerica, we don't pronounce 'c' or 'z' the way Spaniards do. Never. Why?, you can call it Andalusian influence, lazyness, or I don't know. So down here 'c', 'z' and 's' have the same sound, except when they ('c' and 'z') come before 'a', 'o' and 'u'.

Basically, the Castillian 'c' and 'z' sound is identical with the English devoiced "th" (think).

The English voiced 'th' doesn't exist at all in Spanish. (But anyone who is capable to do the devoiced one is able to do the voiced one).

I think, that for most of Spaniards it is easy to make these sounds when they speak English, because they know at lease one of them from their own language.

On the other hand, for Latinamericans, this sound is something new which we have to learn, because we don't have it in our Spanish.
We normally tend to make the mistake to replace it by our 't' sound, perhaps due to the fact that visually both of them contain the 't'.

The French and the Germans tend to replace it by their voiced 's', which is a sound that occurs in both languages, but not in Spanish. Why do they do that and why do they find it hard to differentiate? I just don't know, because the difference is clear for people whose mother thongue is neither French nor German. I have always found the mixing t-th a bit more understandable (nevertheless FALSE!!!! as well) than the mixint t-voiced s.....

Apart from this, Spanish and French 't' are pronounced the same way, which is with the tip of the thongue against the posterior side of the upper teeth, whereas the English 't' is articulated a bit more backwards, without touching the teeth at all.

I hope this clarifies the confussion a little bit. I am interested in you opinions, being you English and French speakers respectively.

I find this very interesting as well as I too thought they knew they were pronouncing it incorrectly.

My poor husband (Italian) cannot get the difference between the English "ee" and "i" no matter how hard he tries. After an embarrasing beach/bitch episode (I want to go see some famous beaches), he started raving, asking me, "How could you [the English Language] be so stupid to use so many words that sound just about the same?! Especialy with *vulgar* meanings?!"

I couldn't stop laughing - which he didn't take too well.

I agree with fab ; for me there isn't difference to hear 'sink' / 'think'. I agree with Tiffany's husband that 'ee' and 'i' isn't possible differentiate them. Also 'h' is truly nasty. But, for understand, the most difficult thing in english is the disappearance of the half of words because of the word-stress.

I agree with Tiffany's husband that 'ee' and 'i' isn't possible differentiate them

Para mi también es imposible diferenciar "ee" e "i" en Inglés.

Another thing similar to the bitch/beach thing is that many non-native English speakers can't differentiate between the vowel sounds in 'pan' and 'pen'. You can pronounce 'pan' as 'pen' and 'bin' as 'been' if you want — it just sounds a bit Australian, lol.

As for the Standard English 'th' sounds... if you find you can't pronounce them, my personal recommendation would be to pronounce the devoiced 'th' (as in 'think') as a 'f' (so 'fink') and the voiced 'th' (as in 'that') as a 'd' (so 'dat'). That's how a lot of people in Birmingham (Central England) pronounce them.

I was just thinking about this again:

« D'ailleurs l'exemple que tu donnes est interessant: Les versions Anglaises et Françaises possèdent la même graphie (l'un étant directement importé à partir de l'autre) : "commerce", but the pronounciation is completly different. »

As for whether or not the English pronunciation of 'commerce' is 'completely different' from the French pronunciation... that depends very much on which dialect of English (and I suppose also French) is being used. Personally, how I pronounce 'commerce' is more similar to how most people in Northern France would say it than to how most people in the United States would say it. Basically, I can think of about five different ways of saying that word in English.

(Je dis la France du Nord parce que c'est l'accent que je connais le mieux).

<<I agree with fab ; for me there isn't difference to hear 'sink' / 'think'. >>

Really ? I think that to describe sounds is difficult and generally is not effective or accurate. I would explain it comparing things. Let's see it that works, well I'd compare the sound of 's' more or less with the sound that the gas makes when it escapes slowly from a gas cylinder. Make that sound with your mouth them put the tongue between the teeth and let the air escape then you have the 'th' or the Spaniard 'z'. When somebody says a word that contains 'th' like 'think' you will see the tongue outside for a fraction of a second.

<<I agree with Tiffany's husband that 'ee' and 'i' isn't possible differentiate them.>>

I can't either. I see no difference between 'feel' and 'fit' except for the 't'. Although I can note the difference between 'beach' and 'bitch'. The 't' is strong enough to note it.

So when you hear a native English speaker (who isn't from Australia) say 'fit' and 'feet', do they sound the same to you? Or do you just mean that you can't pronounce the difference yourself?

<<So when you hear a native English speaker (who isn't from Australia) say 'fit' and 'feet', do they sound the same to you? Or do you just mean that you can't pronounce the difference yourself? >>

They sound the same to me, and I can't pronounce the difference also.

<<So when you hear a native English speaker (who isn't from Australia)...>>

What!? Australians pronounce in a different way !? this thing is going worst! LOL!

<<...say 'fit' and 'feet', do they sound the same to you? Or do you just mean that you can't pronounce the difference yourself? >>

Well, now I can't say that I have heard both words one behind the other so I can't assure that both sound different or identical to me but in any case I'd pronounce 'ee' and 'i' the same way.

<<My poor husband (Italian) cannot get the difference between the English "ee" and "i" no matter how hard he tries. After an embarrasing beach/bitch episode>>

OH MY GOD! You don't know what a good laugh that gave me. That was hilarious. You have a funny way of putting things Tiffany that just make me laugh sometimes hysterically.

Fab,
For an English speaker, there is a huge difference between (th)ink and
(s)ink. The 's' is not pronounced with your tounge in between your teeth, while the 'th' sound is.

The reason I describe the Spanish 't' as being "in-between English 't' and 'th'" is because in Spanish, the 't' is pronounced with your tounge in between your teeth (just like English 'th'), only absent the hissing noise, which comes from blowing air out.

In Spanish, I always pronounce 'c', 's', and 'z' virtually the same, except in cases when the 'c' has an English 'k' sound. I pronounce these three letters like the English 's'. Now I know in Spain, this sound is often replaced with an English "th".

I pronounce "commerce" as this: (kah-merss). The first 'c' is hard, like a "k" sound, while the second 'c' is soft like an 's' sound.

Okay, I've been doing some tounge exercises for a while, and this is what I have determined.

To pronounce the Spanish 't' (Mexican version), one can either press his tounge against the back of his top teeth, or he can put his tounge between his teeth, without letting air out.

An English 't' can be achieved without letting your tounge come in contact with your teeth.

Can some body do me a favor and list a few words in French which end with a 't' sound?

« What!? Australians pronounce in a different way !? this thing is going worst! LOL! »

Australians would pronounce 'fit' and 'feet' more or less the same (both like 'feet').

French words which end in a T sound:

crainte
cette
bête
toute
droite
ouest
tante

Pauline,

At least you have in French the way to differentiate closed e from open e, I mean é from è. This is something that took many years to my Spanish ears to differentiate. Our phonetics is so poor, that we just have five vowel sounds, and that's all!!!....

Concerning the 'ee' and the 'i' there is something funny about. It seems that we in Mexico DO hear a difference, but no one knows which it is, and the best example is the way many Mexicans pronounce the word 'shit'.

Many of them pronounce it like 'shet', whereas some others like 'sheet', but no one seems to get the right 'i' sound!!!!!

As an effort to explain this sound to other Spanish speakers (and as far as I know, to other Italian speakers as well) I would say, that 'i' is a very short, wide open, towards 'e' sounding 'i'.

Benjamin, Tiffany, corrections or suggestions are welcomed!!!