Notional passives

Guest   Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:09 am GMT
<In this case, the verb "wash" is clearly capable of expressing the meaning "undergoes washing" in the active voice. >

The adverbs used for such sentences as "this book reads well" or "the shirt washes easily" allow us to attribute a generic quality to the book or shirt.

Tigers kill readily.
12BC/BK annoys willingly.
12BH   Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:38 am GMT
"The adverbs used for such sentences as 'this book reads well' or 'the shirt washes easily' allow us to attribute a generic quality to the book or shirt.

Tigers kill readily.
12BC/BK annoys willingly."

And all very simply and straightforwardly expressed in the active voice!
M56   Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:30 pm GMT
<And all very simply and straightforwardly expressed in the active voice! >

Do you wish to narrow down speakers' choices, or is it that the think "Tigers kill readily" is in the active voice?
Pos   Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:31 pm GMT
12BJERK, tell us what you know about syntactic, semantic and pragmatic meaning.
12BE   Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:51 pm GMT
Oh, I'm not sure I should waste my time on someone who appears to want to be offensive.
M56   Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:46 pm GMT
<Oh, I'm not sure I should waste my time on someone who appears to want to be offensive. >

And yet you feel it's OK to waste our time with your silly notion of tense and the active/passive/middle voice in English.
12LO   Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:59 pm GMT
"And yet you feel it's OK to waste our time with your silly notion of tense and the active/passive/middle voice in English."

Why not?

You seem to think it's OK to waste everyone's time with your silly notions about a notional passive/middle voice in English.
M56   Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:39 pm GMT
Back to notional passives, pseudo-transitives, middles... or whatever else you want to call them.

The gun fired.
The eggs are frying.
Her fatigue showed.
This bread cuts easily.
The cake should cook slowly.
Lazar   Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:37 pm GMT
<<And all very simply and straightforwardly expressed in the active voice!>>

No. If these verbs were "simply and straightforwardly" in the active voice, then we would naturally expect them to have direct objects: "The shirt washes (something) well," "The book reads (something) well." But of course, these verbs don't have direct objects, because they are passive in meaning. This would make them awkward anomalies in the active voice - not "simple and straightforward" at all.

As I have said above, the simplest solution (for everyone, including learners) is to simply acknowledge the existence of a middle voice, in which active verbs become passive in meaning. The only alternative would be to add dozens of new definitions to dozens of separate verbs.
12AB   Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:18 pm GMT
"If these verbs were 'simply and straightforwardly' in the active voice, then we would naturally expect them to have direct objects: 'The shirt washes (something) well,' 'The book reads (something) well.' But of course, these verbs don't have direct objects, because they are passive in meaning."

So then you obviously believe the following are passive in meaning too?

That man swears all the time.

I work hard all week.

The girls listen closely.
M56   Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:12 pm GMT
<So then you obviously believe the following are passive in meaning too?

That man swears all the time.

I work hard all week.

The girls listen closely. >

I didn't read "only passives do not have direct objects" in Lazar's post, did you?
Lazar   Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:08 am GMT
<<So then you obviously believe the following are passive in meaning too?>>

No, those verbs are all active in meaning. Here, as in all true active sentences, the action is performed by the subject, not on it:

"That man swears all the time." ≠ "That man is sworn all the time."
"I work hard all week." ≠ "I am worked hard all week."
"The girls listen closely." ≠ "The girls are listened closely."

In my "shirt" and "book" examples the action is performed on the subject; this is what would make them anomalies in the active voice.
M56   Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:43 am GMT
<In my "shirt" and "book" examples the action is performed on the subject; this is what would make them anomalies in the active voice. >

Exactly right.
M56   Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:20 am GMT
The main purpose of notional passive sentences such as "this shirt irons easily" is to attribute a generic quality to the object/person described.

Similar statements with the same purpose:

It's an easy-iron shirt.
You'll have no problems (when) ironing this shirt.
This shirt undergoes ironing with ease.
Everyone will find (that) this shirt (is) easy to iron.
M56   Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:20 am GMT
<is to attribute a generic quality to the object/person >

And, BTW, "shirt" is actually the syntactic subject, but the semantic object, below.

"This shirt irons easily."

Read about surface subjects, deep subjects, etc.