Notional passives

<Hmm. "The shirt irons well" is not in the active voice. If it was, you could extend the sentence to include an object (The shirt irons [what?] well), because "irons" would be a transitive verb. >

NOTIONAL PASSIVE


is a name sometimes applied to structures wherein a verb in active voice works semantically to achieve a passive effect, as in This shirt washes well, which is notionally the same as the passive This shirt can be washed well.

http://www.bartleby.com/68/30/4130.html

A few languages (such as Sanskrit, Icelandic and Classical Greek) have a middle voice. An intransitive verb that appears active but expresses a passive action characterizes the English middle voice. For example, in The casserole cooked in the oven, cooked appears syntactically active but semantically passive, putting it in the middle voice.

<"[N]ot so much based on observation of the language but rather on making the language fit preconceived notions of grammar." >

What is your explanation, if not the usual one of "in the active voice", for such sentences as this?

"The cat chased the mouse."

If you do not use the preconceived notion of "active voice", what do you use?

<Hmm. "The shirt irons well" is not in the active voice. If it was, you could extend the sentence to include an object (The shirt irons [what?] well), because "irons" would be a transitive verb. >

How about here?

I don't cook well.
The meat cooks well.

Could the first example really be said to be "passive" in any sense?

<It also can't be seen as passive voice (despite the passive meaning), because of the active structure; the middle voice was invented because there was a need to describe sentences active in structure, but passive in meaning. Nothing preconceived about it - it came as a result of observation, and as a solution to a grammatical handicap. Not to mention that the middle and mediopassive voices are not an invention of our times, but are in fact pretty ancient. >

Sanity at last.

Our friend use the term "preconceived notions" as a cop put to discussing the real use behind such sentences as we have here.

<Our friend use the term "preconceived notions" as a cop put to discussing the real use behind such sentences as we have here. >

Well, after having caused the destruction of the original intent of this thread, I guess our friend is felling pretty pleased with him/her/itself.


I wonder if he/she/it would also deny the term "notional passive" in such cases as this one:

"The buses are being filled."

< There's a different meaning to the verb "iron" in each example here, that's all. Why overcomplicate that? >

What are those different meanings?


Is one of them "can be easily ironed"?

Please, IS the verb syntactically active here or not?

"The data won't compute..."

<Please, IS the verb syntactically active here or not?

"The data won't compute..." >

Yes.

Here too:

"The floor waxes easily."

Active voice (with adverb) and notionally passive.

Yeahhhh! 100 posts! Did you get an answer to your original question, Pos?

One thing, 12-666, or whatever you want to next call yourself:

"The notional passive avoids passive markers by relying on the hearer's common sense or knowledge of the world."

Po-Ching Yip, Don Rimmington, Yip Po-Ching.

Thanks, M56.

One more thing.

Is this an intransitive active sentence?

"The door opened."

<Thanks, M56. >

You're welcome.

<One more thing.

Is this an intransitive active sentence?

"The door opened.">

Yes it is, and could also be called a notional (semantic) passive, as opposed to a syntactic passive.

Some English middle verbs:

open
close
lock
break
shatter
crack
widen

bake
boil
cook
fry
roast

fire
show
sound