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Notional passives

Pos   Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:31 pm GMT

Do you use notional passives, such as the ones below, in your variant of English? This book reads well. This shirt irons easily. The cake should cook slowly.

Pos   Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:34 pm GMT

Sorry, a notional passive is one which is active in form and passive in meaning.

Robin   Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:43 pm GMT

All these expressions sound fine, and all, except the last one, are heard quite often. There is nothing wrong with the last expression.

12HC   Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:57 pm GMT

There is no such thing as a "notional passive" in English so why introduce such a concept?

Pos   Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:50 pm GMT

<There is no such thing as a "notional passive" in English so why introduce such a concept? > Where on earth did you here that?

M56   Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:52 pm GMT

<There is no such thing as a "notional passive" in English so why introduce such a concept? > How then would you describe the above examples, 12HC?

12EV   Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:58 pm GMT

They're quite clearly active voice. Next question please.

M56   Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:01 pm GMT

<They're quite clearly active voice. > If you need a basic grammar course, please let me know.

12EA   Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:09 pm GMT

If you need a basic grammar course, please let me know too.

M56   Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:15 pm GMT

Does anyone here, apart from Pos and myself , understand this? "Active in form, but passive in meaning."

12EN   Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:24 pm GMT

"Active in form, but passive in meaning" Lovely idea, useless concept. Might I suggest you call it "anti-deponent" to give it that pompous Latin grammar touch?

M56   Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:33 pm GMT

<Lovely idea, useless concept. > Really? Students seem to find it very useful. So, how do you explain to students that the sentences above are active in form and passive in meaning? Or do you think that they are active in form and meaning?

12EC   Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:34 pm GMT

"Or do you think that they are active in form and meaning?" Why not?

M56   Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:01 pm GMT

OK... if active in form and active in meaning, what does this mean? The shirt washes easily. If the active voice places the subject (agent/doer of the action) first and the object (the one/thing who/that the action affects) after the verb, as above, does the sentence mean that the shirt (SUBJECT) washes itself (OBJECT) and does so with ease? Or does it mean this? "This shirt is easily washed by anyone who cares to wash it?"

M56   Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:39 pm GMT

12EC has gone all quiet. ?? Kenneth G. Wilson (1923–). The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993. NOTIONAL PASSIVE is a name sometimes applied to structures wherein a verb in active voice works semantically to achieve a passive effect, as in This shirt washes well, which is notionally the same as the passive This shirt can be washed well.