Galician and Portuguese

George   Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:45 pm GMT
Rui Monday, June 13, 2005, 19:23 GMT

Quoting Jordi :

«Unfortunately, I have no time to translate this text written in official Galician by Camilo Nogueira, a Galician himself, but it could be a start to argue the re-integration of Galician in the Galician-Portuguese-Brazilian language.

Nogueira defends the fact that Galician has always been the same language as Portuguese and that the phonology of the Rías Baixas (Galician Coast nearer to Northern Portugal) is actually nearer Portuguese than the official Galician norm of the Xunta. Therefore, a Galician agrees with what I previously said how "rural" or "popular" Galician can often sound much more Portuguese to the untrained ear than Galician. In Spanish National TV, Galician fishermen and peasants are often subtitled whilst the official politicians speaking in Galician are never subtitled since, the latter, use a variety which is pefectly understandable to all Spaniards whilst the former sound strangely Portuguese and are hard to follow.

The first question would be. Do the Portuguese and Brazilians have the feeling that the text of Nogueira is actually much closer to Portuguese than Spanish?

Nogueira says that even the spelling should evolve to become more Portuguese (nh for ñ, lh for ll; making it closer to the shared mediaeval Galaico-Portuguese language in many cases.)

Please red the full original text:

http://membres.lycos.fr/questione/artigos/nogueira1.html »

My answer is yes, that text can be read almost as Portuguese, just with some strange words, most of them look like Portuguese medieval archaisms, and just a few syntactical differences (different clitics location).

About the spelling, I think at least a few of the differences correspond to real pronounciation differences between spoken Galician and Standard Portuguese (Lisbon-Coimbra pattern), like in "junta" x "xunta"; though between Galician and Portuguese as spoken in North Western Portugal the pronounciation is much more alike. Yet my knowledge of spoken Galician is very limited, so I can't be sure.

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Rui Monday, June 13, 2005, 19:33 GMT

Sad news to everyone interested in literature in Portuguese Language: poet Eugénio de Andrade died today. I'll try to translate and publish here a couple of his poems as soon as I have free time.
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Im Memoriam Monday, June 13, 2005, 19:44 GMT

http://portugal.poetryinternational.org/file/Andrade.jpg

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yannick to Im Memoriam Monday, June 13, 2005, 20:04 GMT

Your name is "In" Memoriam surely?

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Im Memoriam Monday, June 13, 2005, 20:06 GMT

nope (latin)

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xuloChavez Monday, June 13, 2005, 23:30 GMT

I still thing that, unfortunately, there is no basis to say that galician has been artificially kept at a distance from portuguese. C Nogueira doesnt give any justification to his claim that Rias Baixas galician is closer to portuguese than official norm, and anyway I know its not: It doesnt have the z/c sound that is present in the rest of galicia and not in portugal, but thats it.

Jordi insists that galician peasants sound a lot more portuguese than politicians, but that again is just a superficial impression: native galician intonation is indeed a lot closer to portuguese than to spanish, but all other phonetic traits are very well established, almost all speakers agree on a correct use thats very different from lisbon norm, and I doubt very much that this is result of spanish influence (im talking phonetics here, not vocabulary which definitely shows the impact of castilian spanish), let alone a political will.

With respect to written norm, I would like it to agree as much as possible with mainstream portuguese, but unfortunately even minor changes like using nh would be complicated: this letter combination is already used to represent a nasal n in unha/algunha etc, which in official portuguese I believe is uma etc. Other changes like using g/j instead of x wouldnt make any sense since spoken galician nowhere makes this difference

So to sum up, I think Academia Galega make a conservative but decent job in when elaborating the official norm for galician. After all, not to forget that galician did have a sustantial literary tradition in modern times, and any official norm that went too strongly against the uses its uses could be easily be accused of trying to impose a made up language on the galician speakers

Still galician & portuguese are still perfectly intercomprehensible now. Phonetic differences are strong, but because the words used are the same its only a matter of gaining familiarity with a different accent rather than learning a different code before being able to communicate effectively. With portuguese friends I always use galician and the communication is perfect.
JGreco   Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:44 pm GMT
But would you say that Gallego is an intermediary between Eu. Castellano and Eu. Portuguese. Also, do you think Brazilians understand better Gallego or standard Eu.Portuguese. It is a very interesting question that hopefully educated people in this forum can answer for me.
Mark   Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:31 pm GMT
From what I've read on Ethnologue and some other websites dealing with Iberian Romance languages and dialects, Leon is now almost solidly standard Castilian speaking. Asturian or "Bable" is spoken by a few hundred thousand people in Asturias (north of Leon and just east of Galicia), and is mainly spoken as a primary language by older people and by those living in rural areas.

Apparently in the not-too-distant past (a few generations ago) Astur-leonese dialects were widespread in Leon and in the western part of Extremadura.
JR   Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:18 am GMT
Its hard to tell which one Galican is closer to without hearing it. I've recently taken an interest in this particular language, I've even been sufring the Galican version of Wikipedia, and Noguiera's documents seem much more "Portuguesed" than what I've been reading in Wikipedia, but that could all be in my head.

I'd say that Galican would be somewhere down the middle between Castillan and Eu. Portuguese, and considering its geographical location, its no surprise.
Gringo   Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:51 am GMT
Brennus :
««Most etymologists believe that the name 'Galicia' derives from the name of an ancient Celtic tribe living in the region , the "Galaeci" although a few believe that this is coincidental and claim the name comes from an obscure Iberian name *Kalikia.»»

Or more probably from the name given by the Greeks: Kallaikoi ( καλλαικoι).


JR:
««Its hard to tell which one Galican is closer to without hearing it»»

CASTRO LABORDEIRO (PORTUGAL):
MINHO/BRAGA (PORTUGAL):
http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/hlp/geografia/som1.html

MINHO/BRAGA (PORTUGAL):
http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/hlp/geografia/som14.html

TRÁS OS MONTES (PORTUGAL):
http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/hlp/geografia/som6.html

BEIRA (PORTUGAL):
http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/hlp/geografia/som9.html

LOBIOS (GALIZA):
http://www.culturagalega.org/pruebas/anosafala/etnotexto.php?bloque=Central&cod_etntxts=45

RIBEIRA (GALIZA):
http://www.culturagalega.org/pruebas/anosafala/etnotexto.php?bloque=Occidental&cod_etntxts=8

O ROSAL (GALIZA):
http://www.culturagalega.org/pruebas/anosafala/etnotexto.php?bloque=Occidental&cod_etntxts=17


Notice that the Galician, mentioned in ethnologue, that is spoken in Portugal, is called Portuguese:
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=glg
Rui   Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:21 pm GMT
Quoting Mark : «Apparently in the not-too-distant past (a few generations ago) Astur-leonese dialects were widespread in Leon and in the western part of Extremadura.»

Mirandese (Mirandês), the other official language in Portugal, is one of that dialects that survived until our days. It is spoken in a small territory (Miranda), in Northeastern Portugal. Nowadays is teached in elementary schools and there's governamental support to its diffusion, so the number of speakers is increasing.
Poisa   Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:14 pm GMT
Only low class people speak Galician.
Spanish is preferred these days in Galicia and it is a must for everyone in any situation of social importance.
Gringo   Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:15 pm GMT
Poisa Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:14 pm GMT
««Only low class people speak Galician.»»

Galicians are low class people? LOL
JR   Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:19 pm GMT
I listened to a few of the clips above and I'd say it sounds more like Portuguese, but it really does sound alot like Spanish. Perhaps something in between.
Gringo   Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:48 am GMT
Brennus
«« I can't think of any Ancient Greek who would have mentioned Galicia except for the geographer Strabo (or Strabon)»»

You have, for instance, Herodotus that makes a small comment about the Kallaïkous when he references the wars in IBÊRIKÊ:

ηο δε καιριον εσ ουεττονασ και καλλαικουσ τραπεισ τα εκεινον εδειου

“Cæpio turned against the Vettones and the Callaici and wasted their fields. “

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0230;query=chapter%3D%2320;layout=;loc=Hisp.%2011.61


[««He compares the Celtiberians with the Scythians (in southern Ukraine and Russia) and says that, like the Scythians, they were skilled at riding horses and fighting on horseback.»»

The Irish Lebor Gabála Érenn mentions that Míl Espáine came from Scythia before settling in Hispania. Centuries later, the Alans (Sarmatians, related to Scythians) came from that same region and chose Lusitania to settle. Latter on, the Visigoths that had settled in Oium also chose Hispania. Jordanes said Oium was a name for Scythia. In some way Scythianas seems to be connected to Iberia. Maybe it is just a coincidence.]



««He seems to have thought that the Lusitanians were weird, especially in their religious practices which involved human sacrifices.»»

Romans also thought it was weird women fighting alongside with men, Lusitani men marring just one wife and living with her for the rest of their lives. They admired Viriathus, a Lusitani leader, and the warrior skill of the people of Hispania.

In Rome the practice of human sacrifice was only prohibited in 97 BC. But many people kept doing it in secret. Romans would use any excuse to attack other people although their own practices were not much different.


««That's still more than what the Romans tell us.»»

Silius Italicus in his book Punica writes a few words about Callaecia:
Fibrarum et pennae divinarumque sagacem
flammarum misit dives Callaecia pubem,
barbara nunc patriis ululantem carmina linguis,
nunc pedis alterno percussa verbere terra,
ad numerum resonas gaudentem plauder caetras.

"Rich Gallaecia sent its youths, wise in the knowledge of divination by the entrails of beasts, by feathers and flames— who, now crying out the barbarian song of their native tongue, now alternately stamping the ground in their rhythmic dances until the ground rang, and accompanying the playing with sonorous caetras"
JGreco   Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:31 am GMT
Wow!! Hearing those recordings makes me realize something. I may be speaking out of context but I notice striking similarities between pronunciation and word usage in Latin American varieties of Spanish (especially Caribbean varieties) and pronunciation of Galician Portuguese. Someone really needs to consider a study comparing Galician Portuguese and the variations of spoken spanish in Latin America. By the way, I personally could understand 95 to 100% of what was spoken in those recordings. How amazing!
John   Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:39 pm GMT
While I largely agree with you about the generativists quite incoherent ideas about the social functions of language and their lack of critical reflection on their understanding of language/dialect/idiolect distinctions, and while I have similar criticisms of SIL (although their mandate is rather narrow and their village-by-village conception of language has some justification for them), I have to confess that I think the Brazil/Portugal linguistic distinction is at least as big as the US/UK distinction and probably bigger. I can understand spoken Brazilian Portuguese without too much trouble, but after moving to Europe it took me a month to figure out that I got RTP International on cable. Until I had watched the channel long enough to start seeing on-screen text, I was sure that they were speaking Polish.

I've never had this problem in Spanish - even Bolivian Spanish, which is just weird - and I've met a lot of Europeans who've had this sort of trouble with Canadian French. But the only time I ever had comparable trouble in English was in Scotland, where I once had to ask someone if they spoke French because I couldn't understand a word they were saying.

So, the shoe goes on the other foot too for the "segregationist" thesis. Recognizing "Brazilian Portuguese" as distinct makes it a "real" language rather than a "corrupt" version of the Lisbon dialect, and this, in turn, empowers Brazilians who are not educated to the Lisbon standard. We had this same fight in Canada thirty years ago with French. Noah Webster did the same thing in the US 200 years ago, and for explicitly political reasons. He even wanted to stop calling American English "English", and wanted the US to declare its official language to be "American."

Brazilian Portuguese as a social construct would never have left the linguistics community had it not responded to some quite extra-linguistic political needs. So, assigning an explicit political intent to the linguists of the period is not necessarily well founded, even if the origins of this idea could be directly traced to them.
Gringo   Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:27 pm GMT
««Until I had watched the channel long enough to start seeing on-screen text, I was sure that they were speaking Polish. »»

You are referring to the accent. EuPortuguese seems to have a North-Eastern European accent, and to some people it resembles Russian or Polish. Any Ukrainian, after learning Portuguese vocabulary, speaks Portuguese with a native Portuguese accent. The same happens with Romanian immigrants. Is it a coincidence or are there historical factors for this to happen?


««Recognizing "Brazilian Portuguese" as distinct makes it a "real" language rather than a "corrupt" version of the Lisbon dialect, and this, in turn, empowers Brazilians who are not educated to the Lisbon standard. »»

That "segregationist" thesis is a strange one.
Brazilians have their own standard. People keep putting the Lisbon version, which by the way is not the standard in Portugal, as a comparison but any one in Portugal would laugh at this. In Portugal only the people from Lisbon are educated in the Lisbon standard. There are too many accents in Portugal, just like in most countries of Europe.

Brazilians can not be educated in the Lisbon standard they have their own standard and a different spelling convention. No one has to recognise Brazilian Portuguese because it exists as a version of Portuguese, and it is very well recognised in the Portuguese language community.
G.T   Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:01 pm GMT
"Until I had watched the channel long enough to start seeing on-screen text, I was sure that they were speaking Polish. "
Agree with Gringo, u are talking about different accents cuz the language is the same even though with some distinct vocabulary from each varieties.
Since u ( John ) came to Portugal, i'm sure u travelled to different parts of the country and encountered several differences between each local accent. Cuz the Portuguese spoken in Portugal its not the same to all country, a person from Lisbon dont talk like a person who comes from Oporto, Alentejo or Algarve ( this one sumtimes its even unrecognizable for Eu. Portuguese speakers ). U never had problems with spanish either as u understand even Bolivian, but here in Portugal Sitcom series from either Spain and Mexico run on Tv, and i can point out differences, mainly on the speed to which the language is spoken, i must say Mexican is more easy to hear and understand than Castillean from Spain ( Here, the language is spoken incredibly fast ), and lets not forget the caribbean version which oftens drops words, so that a word like lado, becomes lao, or enamorado, becomes enamorao, similar to portuguese way to pronounce words such as cão, melão, etc.
#   Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:51 am GMT
JGreco Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:31 am GMT
Wow!! Hearing those recordings makes me realize something. I may be speaking out of context but I notice striking similarities between pronunciation and word usage in Latin American varieties of Spanish (especially Caribbean varieties) and pronunciation of Galician Portuguese. Someone really needs to consider a study comparing Galician Portuguese and the variations of spoken spanish in Latin America.
-----------------------


"There was significant Galician emigration in the 19th and early 20th centuries to other parts of Spain and to Latin America. In fact, the city with the second greatest number of Galician people is Buenos Aires, Argentina ,where immigration from Galicia was so massive that all Spaniards are now called gallegos." ~wikipedia


La influencia del portugués en el palenquero colombiano / William M. Megenney
En: Thesaurus: Boletín del instituto Caro y Cuervo, ISSN 0040-604X, Tomo 38, Nº 3, 1983, pags. 548-563


Megenney, William W. "La influencia criollo-portuguesa en el español caribeño." Anuario de Lingüística Hispánica, No.1, 1985. pp. 157-175.


Pérez Vidal, José. 199 1. Los portugueses en Canarias. Portuguesismos. Las Palmas: Ediciones del Cabildo Insular de Gran Canaria. 375 pp.

La influencia portuguesa en las hablas canarias y americanas: el caso del verbo "pegar". In Hernández et al. 1991:2.977-985.


“El cambio de expresiones como "nunca más" por "más nunca" (en Motivos... por ejemplo: "No te enamore má nunca, Bito Manué, si no sabe inglé") es una consecuencia, según algunos investigadores54 , de la influencia portuguesa en el español coloquial del Caribe, y estos elementos no han llevado a nadie a considerar seriamente una influencia lusitana en el autor de Motivos...

Esta es la segunda objeción que podemos hacer a los partidarios de las teorías que aquí nos ocupan. La influencia del portugués llega a Guillén tal y como le llegó la africana: a través del español coloquial cubano.” http://www2.glauco.it/vitral%20/edvitral/masluz/motivos/10.htm

“In Spain, such constructions are almost never heard, except occasionally in Galicia (under the influence of Galician), and the Canary Islands (where the Galician influence was once prominent).” http://arachne.rutgers.edu/vol2_1lipski.htm