The dreaded R!!!

Travis   Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:20 pm GMT
>>Travis,

it's interesting that the historical german r was similar with enlgish. I know that some german people pronounce the r trilled, but I don't understand what's : [r\] alveolar. This is the english r ? I can't imagine the english r in german, it would be very funny LOL !!!<<

English dialects generally have either an alveolar [r\] or postalveolar [r\_-] (some will say that this is the retroflex [r\`] but it really isn't that) for canonical /r/, non-rhoticism aside. There are some that have a velar [M\] for canonical /r/ as well. Note that what is called a "bunched 'r'" is really a markedly *laminal* postalveolar [r\_-_m] or a velar [M\], with the former being more common. I myself normally have a uvular approximant [R_o] most of the time, besides in clusters in onsets with labials and coronals, where I generally have [r\_-_m], but my dialect's weird in this regard.
Pauline   Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:29 pm GMT
>> English dialects generally have either an alveolar [r\] or postalveolar [r\_-] (some will say that this is the retroflex [r\`] but it really isn't that) for canonical /r/, non-rhoticism aside. There are some that have a velar [M\] for canonical /r/ as well. Note that what is called a "bunched 'r'" is really a markedly *laminal* postalveolar [r\_-_m] or a velar [M\], with the former being more common. I myself normally have a uvular approximant [R_o] most of the time, besides in clusters in onsets with labials and coronals, where I generally have [r\_-_m], but my dialect's weird in this regard. <<

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sorry, I can't understand what you've written :-(

I don't know this words at all ; I havn't learned such things for exemple : postalveolr, non-rhoticism, velar, etc also the symbols I don't know them. Unfortunatly at my school you can't learn linguistic ; it's a subject you can learn only at the university I think.

But, for sure it seems english have *very* many versions of r !!!!!!!!
Travis   Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:38 pm GMT
>>But, for sure it seems english have *very* many versions of r !!!!!!!!<<

Well, alveolar and postalveolar realizations are actually the most predominant by far, and they really do not differ much. The only really significant difference between the two is that postalveolar realizations of canonical /r/ are generally associated with affrication of preceding /t/ as [tS], and in some dialects (such as my own) with affrication of preceding /d/ as [dZ]. Realization of canonical /r/ as [M\] is much less common, but one will hear it at times.

At the same time, these various realizations of canonical /r/ often differ between dialects with respect to rounding and or pharyngealization. However, these details are generally not stated in transcriptions.

As for the uvular approximant [R_o], that is just a very weird feature of my dialect. It may or may not be due to substratum influence, which would most likely from German, but besides that possibility I cannot identify why my dialect happens to have it for canonical /r/.
Pauline   Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:52 pm GMT
Travis,

it's a pity but really I can't understadn your infos. I'm 14 year-old and I can't speak very well english and I don't know linguitsic terminology or those things. Sorry.

I learn some languages, but without such descriptions of the letters. But probably what you've written it will be very interesting for the other people.

Bye.
Travis   Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:17 am GMT
Sorry, but a lot of its phonetics/phonology jargon combined with X-SAMPA notation, which would likely be hard for anyone who is not familiar with it to understand, whether or not they speak English well. Unfortunately, though, it really is difficult to precisely describe these kinds of things without such, as the words really do not exist in layman's terms for accurately stating such kinds of things.
greg   Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:20 am GMT
Pauline : Travis est une spécialiste de la phonologie. Je pense que tu devrais jeter un petit coup d'œil aux sites suivants : ça t'aiderait à comprendre certains symboles utilisés entre []. Mais attention ! L'indication que je te donne n'est pas très facile à piger non plus. Il faut un peu de temps avant de bien assimiler la logique. Surtout, n'hésite pas à préciser les questions que tu souhaites adresser à Travis.


http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-SAMPA

http://www.diku.dk/hjemmesider/studerende/thorinn/xsamchart.gif
Meesh   Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:55 am GMT
Pauline,

I hope you don't think I am antagonizing you or anything on this thread. I just didn't want any hostility among the responses.

I understand that you are upset at Brennus for deleting your posts. Believe it or not, Brennus also deleted several of my own posts because I was asking questions about German (I wasn't even typing in German).

But anyway, I understand your indignance toward Brennus. However, I don't want you to be upset at me for *defending* Brennus. I don't want you to think that I am antagonizing you in any way. Rather, you are one of the few people on this forum that I hold in high esteem. I truly admire you for your proficiency in German, Dutch, English, and Spanish (and maybe French?). And to add, you're only 14 years old!

Now here I am, digressing from my topic (but it's okay to digress because I've already had my question about the R answered), but I have one question for you. What is your native tongue, what encouraged you to learn so many more languages, and how did you go about learning all these languages and arrive at such proficient levels?

Meesh.
Pauline   Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:39 pm GMT
Greg,

Thank you veyr much for the links. I've looked at those websites and I think I would like to learn something of those symbols and terminology. I suppose that the words e.g. velar would describe the physical location to produce the letter and the symbols would illustrate the sound of it ?My computer hasn't those symbols.

__________________________________________________________

Meesh,

You wrote :
>> The reason Brennus deletes German threads is because you guys are always badmouthing him and digressing from the thread's topic <<

Then you wrote :
>> Now here I am, digressing from my topic (but it's okay to digress because I've already had my question about the R answered), <<


so, it's acceptable digressing or not ? You're hypocrit, no ?

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Meesh,

You wrote :
>> So please, take your drama elsewhere and leave me to my questions about German. <<

then you wrote :
>> I hope you don't think I am antagonizing you or anything on this thread. I just didn't want any hostility among the responses. <<

I find that your first sentence is hostile.

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Meesh,

You wrote :
>> But anyway, I understand your indignance toward Brennus. However, I don't want you to be upset at me for *defending* Brennus.<<

You understand my indignance ??? You told that he's deleted our threads because we've badmouthed him.

On our threads we didn't wrote his name, refer him or nothing. We had converstaions about for exemple the differences dass / das when to use each of this and the punctuation, other grammar points, general pratcising german ( converstaions are practice ) etc... It was the same on the dutch threads.

I'm not upset at you for defending Brennus. You can defend his friend Hitler if you want. But never I will agree with you and there's the differences between defend Brennus and put the blame on me and the german thread visitors.

I was upset when you've accused us that we've badmouthed brennus and digresing from the topic. The topic is languages, and for learn a foreign langueg you must practise construct setences. This is what we've put on our threads what were deletd by Brennus. For learn a construction, or a word you must practise this in sentences. This sentences for Brennus were immediatly digression, but for me it's how I can learn another language. Words or constructions speatared havn't usefulness.

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Meesh wrote :
>> What is your native tongue, what encouraged you to learn so many more languages, and how did you go about learning all these languages and arrive at such proficient levels? <<

my native tongue is french. I learnd ducth and latin at school . When I lived one year in a differnt place (not home) I met 2 german-speakers and I've decided learn german. Now english is obligatory at school ; I learn it since some months. Spanish I leanr for my hobby, I found a book for learn spanish in my house.

I can speak fluently dutch, quite well german but my english is elementary and my spanish also. I gave up latin : it's beautiful but for me it was too compliacetd because I can't very well concentrate. Maybe I will learn again latin in the future.

I am absolutly fed up that people don't beleive me when I tell something : just think I've delusions and everything's in my mind. I think that *many* peopl who've mental illness know and tell much more interesting and important things that some normal people who are just very stupid, but the world don't know this because mostly it's intolerant, ignorant and judgemental and make people who've shcizophrenia or bi-polar or other illness to shut up. If you don't shut up then they try stopping you be able think and talk and take away your thoughts. Also they laugh at you when you're talkign with them and after when you're not in the room. so, it's why I'm very sensitive and quickly upset if someone don't believe me or is accusing me of something I didn't wrote, said, done etc... and everyone wnat being respected.Brennus didn't respected me or the other visitors to the german /dutch threads so I don't like him at all. He's put a very stupid message on our german thread at langcafé (he translated it on the internet translator it was evident because it wasn't german but some words written) . The moderator of the german thread at Langcafé deleted it LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tired   Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:15 pm GMT
Pauline, take your chill pill and put a cork in it. Nobody wants to hear your constant bitching on this forum or any other ones you frequent.
Pauline   Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:33 pm GMT
Tired,

what's your name : Sander , Brennus ? or a friend of them ? when you would like to insult someone then you can write down your name, not only soemthing like Tired.

I don't constantly bitching : I was answering the questions of Meesh and giving my opinion and it's allowed givign an opinion.

I visit 3 forums : langcafé, unilang and during the last 3 days this forum again. I've some friends at langcafé so your message it's *incorrect*.

Maybe it's you : nobody don't wnat *your* bitching. For sure I don't want to hear it.
Guest   Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:48 pm GMT
"take your chill pill and put a cork in it"

How is it possible to put a cork into a pill...?! Just curious!
Pauline   Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:34 am GMT
HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!

ALLES GUTE ZUM NEUEN JAHR !!!!

GELUKKIG NIEUWJAAR !!!!


from,
Pauline
JR   Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:03 am GMT
In response to a previous post:

The "R" sound in Jota is not really an R. It's an [x], like the ch in Hebrew and German. I've noticed many Portuguese speakers say words like "Roxo" (Red) as /khosho/ but it doesn't work both ways.

That gutteral J sound is really only used in European Spanish. In Latin American Spanish the J is softer, closer to the English H than the German CH.

And it probably was because of the Arabic influence.

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About the English R

I've heard it in Mandarin Chinese, with words like zai·nar, the final R makes the English R sound. In other locations (such as the word 'ren') it sounds more like an L.

But that's a good question because English is pretty much the only language I've been exposed to that uses that R. I wonder if there are more
Pauline   Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:40 pm GMT
Hola JR,

Te deseo feliz y prospero año nuevo !

No estoy segura porque mi pronunciación de los idiomas es bastante mala, pero pensaba que aunque español tiene j similar como el r del francés, me parecía que pronunces r más abajo en la garganta. No es así ? Travis y Greg tienen razón : es casí imposible expliquar cómo pronunciar sin terminología fonética, pero no lo puedo usarla porque no la conozco. Es verdad que es una pena.
Meesh   Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:50 pm GMT
Cuando yo hablo español, yo pronuncio el "J" (e.g. luJo) como el "CH" (e.g. saCHe) de alemán (como dijo Pauline: abajo de la garganta). Pero, el CH de alemán tiene un poco más aliente/aire de "J" en español.


El "R" de mandarin se pronuncia como el "R" de español con menos trina.

Meesh