Wikipedia in Error?

zzz   Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:34 am GMT
In Wikipedia @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences it says:

>> The past participle gotten is rarely used in modern BrE (although it is used in some dialects), which generally uses got, except in old expressions such as ill-gotten gains. Furthermore, according to the Compact Oxford English Dictionary, "The form gotten is not used in BrE but is very common in North AmE, though even there it is often regarded as non-standard. <<

I don't quite understand this part: "though even there it is often regarded as non-standard."

I've always thought that "gotten" was considered Standard in American English. Is it regarded as non-standard? By whom? I think something is wrong with that statement.
Guest   Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:45 am GMT
It's regarded as standard American English. No American dictionary says that it is not standard.
Uriel   Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:10 am GMT
Dude, never use Wikipedia as a reliable reference. Anyone can write anything they want on that site. There is no oversight and no accountability, hence no guarantee to the accuracy or veracity of anything you read in it. I avoid it as much as possible, and never quote from it as a source.
Guest   Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:28 pm GMT
I think someone should change it then.
j   Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:54 pm GMT
<I think someone should change it then.>
Why do you wait? You can do it easily.
Guest   Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:02 pm GMT
It comes from the Oxford English dictionary. Therefore the Oxford English dictionary is in error!
j   Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:23 pm GMT
What do you mean "error"? Linguistics is not mathematics. Even scholars have different vies. For instance:

"Gotten vs. Got as Past ParticipleI
For the verb got, gotten is often listed as the American past participle and got as the British past participle. Our research shows that gotten is actually more common than got in British English. This is also true for the verb forget.

The situation is complicated by the fact that have got is often used to mean "to have" or "must" such as in the following examples:

I've got five dollars.

I've got to go soon."
www.englishpage.com/
Kelly   Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:29 pm GMT
Many times British dictionaries say X and Y are not standard in American English.

For example, Longman dictionary of American English consideres the usage of JUST, ALREADY with simple past (I just saw/ate) ''informal'' and says: ''you should avoid it in writing''...

Never trust British dictionaries on American usage. They consider many Americanisms ''incorrect, substandard, very colloquial, to be avoided, objected to''...

Stick to Webster, if you're into US English.
j   Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:19 pm GMT
Informal doesn't mean incorrect. <Use "already", "since", "yet", "just" in past participle> - these were our teacher's words in the ESL school (in USA).So there IS a rule. But most people use those words with simple past in everyday common conversation. There is no contradiction here.
zzz   Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:14 pm GMT
>> Many times British dictionaries say X and Y are not standard in American English.

For example, Longman dictionary of American English consideres the usage of JUST, ALREADY with simple past (I just saw/ate) ''informal'' and says: ''you should avoid it in writing''... <<

Yes, but why should "gotten" be avoided in writing? It's used in the most formal American writing.
Ant_222   Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:11 pm GMT
«Dude, never use Wikipedia as a reliable reference. Anyone can write anything they want on that site. There is no oversight and no accountability, hence no guarantee to the accuracy or veracity of anything you read in it. I avoid it as much as possible, and never quote from it as a source.»

They require that your sources be verifiable, and you can mark an article as controversial point and discuss it at forums. Also, if there were no control, it would be full of spam. It seems that all changes made are somehow reviewed/moderated...
Uriel   Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:57 pm GMT
The point is, they don't have a panel of experts presiding, and ultimately are not responsible for the content of the site in the way that the Encyclopaedia Britannica or other professional sites are. This is not to say that the E.B or others don't also have errors -- they do -- or that the articles in Wikipedian might not contain plenty of factual information -- I'm sure they do -- but it's that responsibility and accountability that that gives certain sites more credibility and other sites less.

Sorry, that's just one of those university precepts that was pouinded into my head at school -- always evaluate your sources. Know a primary document from a secondary document. Be able to differentiate opinion or conjecture from hard fact. Be able to recognize fallacious arguments and discern underlying assumptions and points of view -- including your own. That sort of thing.