About Catalan...

"Gracias" en   Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:28 am GMT
Es diu "gràcies" o "mercès". S'usa molt el gal·licisme "merci".

Miquel Adrover
Un Mallorquí.   Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:13 am GMT
He trobat, amics, que un podria esser útil de consultar diverses obres de lexicografia, diccionaris de català o bilingües. Comprodreu veure, n'hi ha que compareixen sota el nom de "valencià". Podreu verificar que "català" i "valencià" són la mateixa llengua amb dos noms diferents, com ara "holandès" i "flamenc" o "espanyol" i "castellà":

http://www.grec.net/home/cel/dicc.htm

http://www.trobat.com/servicis/dvo.php

http://www.geocities.com/golls.geo/Sumarivell.html

http://www.geocities.com/golls.geo/Sumarivell.html

http://dcc.iecat.net/ddlc/index.asp

Teniu, després, aquesta gramàtica, molt completa i recent:

http://www.avl.gva.es/img/EdicionsPublicacions/Publicacions/GNV.pdf

I, per acabar, diversos diaris:

http://www.diaridebalears.com/

http://www.avui.cat/avui/diari/docs/index4.htm

http://www.vilaweb.cat/

http://www.elperiodico.com/default.asp?idioma=CAT

(Aquest darrer el teniu en versió catalana i en versió espanyola).

http://www.regio7.com/

http://www.diariandorra.ad/

Aquest darrer és d'Andorra, el petit Estat on el català és l'única llengua oficial.

Ja em direu si ho trobau útil i interessant.

Miquel Adrover - Mallorca
Un Mallorquí.   Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:39 am GMT
Un Mallorquí.   Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:47 am GMT
Un Mallorquí.   Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:00 am GMT
Ràdio catalana:

http://www.icatfm.cat/

http://www.onamallorca.net/live.php

http://www.com-radio.com/

http://www.arrels.net/ (de la Catalunya Nord, Catalunya sota dominació francesa).

http://www.radioestel.com/radiodirecte.htm

http://www.radiolluna.com/ (d'Elx, sud del País Valencià)

Miquel Adrover
Pere Joan   Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:39 pm GMT
Catalan is, of course, standardised and is studied in all the Spanish Catalan speaking territories from kindergrten to university level. It is also studies in many Hispanic Departaments in Universities all over the world, from La Trobe in Melbourne to Toronto and many others. Mediaeval and Contemporary Catalan literature is amongst the most interesting in Europe and at the same level than it's "bigger" Latin sisters.

There are two official bodies acknowledged for Catalan (also known as Valencian in the Region of Valencia). These are the Institut d'Estudis Catalans and the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua. These bodies have been acknowledged by the official Education Departments and collaborate closely.

Both bodies confirm that Catalan and Valencian are the same language and that Catalan, as a name, is also used in ancient Kingdom of Valencian from Medieavel to Contemporary times although it is true that the "popular" name is Valencian over here.

The grammar is the same and contemporary Catalan was standardised by Pompeu Fabra, in Catalonia, before 1920 although the Renaixença (Rebirth of Catalan literature) began in the early 19th century after several centuries of Castilian Spanish strong influence amongst cultivated elites. Even the elites spoke Catalan at home although Spanish was often used, between the 16th and 19th centuries, as a language of culture. You've got to consider that Spanish was the most important European language in the 16th and 17th centuries and even some Portuguese or Italians wrote in this language at that time.

The Valencian writers and intellectuals accepted the Catalan grammar, with very few adaptations, in 1932 although many had been using it from before since Catalonia and the Valencian Region have always been very close as far as the language and culture goes. The present day differences between written Catalan, Valencian and the Catalan of the Balearic Islands are not bigger than the differences between USA or British English.

In 2.007 there are over 15.000 Catalan teachers, born in the Region of Valencia, who know work in Catalonia or the Balearic Islands since the Valencian diploma is fully accepted in those areas.

There is, of course, a political issue regarding the language (mainly people who aren't too happy about the renewed statute of Catalan and the other co-official Spanish languages: Galician and Basque next to Castilian Spanish.

I don't feel this is the place to discuss it since the Academic world and the official bodies all agree and I won't discuss, as a native speaker who speaks the language every day as his main first language, about this. It's like saying that Flemish and Dutch are different languages. It just isn't the case. I am, of course, fluent in Spanish since the law says we must be fully bilingual but I'm not a native Spanish speaker and can only be a native Catalan speaker.

As I said before Catalan television (TV3 and C-33, two channels 100% in Catalan from Catalonia) is widely followed in the Valencian Region. I'm a native Catalan speaker from the Valencian far south and I follow many television programmes from Catalonia (TV3). It's like the Brits seeing Americans movies or the Americans seeing British movies. Maybe the Balearic Islanders have an accent slightly harder to understand but it only takes a while to get used to it.

I hope to have helped you regarding this issue and will not carry on with biased people.
Pete   Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:25 pm GMT
Muchas gracias por todo.

<<4.-I've heard from Portuguese people that when you speak, you sound as if you had a Portuguese accent, although you're obviously not speaking Portuguese. Can you understand Portuguese more easily than a person that speakes only Spanish?

5.-Can Portuguese people understand spoken Catalan?>>

Si alguien puede exclarecer esos puntos ahora. A parte del Occitano, que otra lengua, sienten ustedes, es más cercana al Catalán. Y cual es más facil de comprender al hablar, el Francés, el Italiano o el Portugués. No cuento el Español, porque creo que la mayoria de gente que habla Catalán como primera lengua conoce tambien el Español...

Muchas gracias de antemano

Saludos

Pete de Peru
Un Mallorquí.   Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:27 pm GMT
Pete, bon vespre,

Esper que la documentació enviada t'hagi estat útil.

Després de la llengua occitana, la més semblant al català és, sense cap mena de dubte, la llengua retoromanx i, immediatament després, l'italià.

Miquel Adrover
Pere Joan   Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:34 pm GMT
The reason why Catalan sounds closer to Portuguese, French or Italian is because our phonetic system is much more complex than Spanish. Spanish has the "poorest" phonetic system in a Romance Language.

In Catalan we have a closed and an open "e" (é tancat i è obert). We also have a closed and opened "o" (ó tancat i ò obert). The "ò" obert is very open in most Valencian and Balearic dialects and slightly less opened in Catalonia.

We also have "s" and double "s". We call them "s" sonora and "s" sorda. Casar means to marry with a soft "s" and "caçar" with a strong "s" means to hunt.

The "l" is Catalan is very "velar" meaning it sounds very strong on the palate, like the English "l". This is one of the main features of Catalans when speaking Spanish. Our "l" is too strong for Spanish.

Entonation is also more sing-song in Catalan than in Spanish. Many dialects sound more like Italian than Spanish. In my southern variety this is the case. I'm speaking of the sound.

Catalan is a bridge language. This means it has features from the other neighbouring languages but it is also quite original. In the past few centuries spoken Catalan has some Spanish influence in the vocabulary but never in the basic vocabulary. A 15th century Catalan-speaker could perfectly understand a 21st century Catalan-speaker. We study our Mediaeval Literature in the original and although it sound old fashioned we understand just about everything.

For a Catalan speaker it is very easy to learn Occitan (of course) but also French, Spanish and even Portuguese or Italian. We are right in the middle of the Latin continuum together with Occitan, our twin sister.

Spanish speaking people can learn Catalan quite easily but they always keep a strong Spanish accent and have some grammar mistakes, unless they are born or bred in the Catalan territory.

The second generation of Spanish immigrants often swift to Catalan, always in the country and medium size cities and not as often in the big cities.

As I told you there are two major varieties: Western Catalan (including Valencian) and Eastern Catalan. The western variety is easier to understand for Spanish-speaking people but it is the same language than the eastern variety where the accent is slightly more difficult.
Pere Joan   Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:40 pm GMT
I wrote without editing and there are a few mistakes although I'm fluent in English. Nevertheless, I meant "switch to Catalan" and not "swift"....
Pete   Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:44 pm GMT
El Catalán es una lengua muy interesante, y es notable el parecido que tiene siempre con alguna otra lengua Romance, como si estuviera, junto con el Occitano, a la misma distancia de las otras, y con un sistema fonémico elaborado, eso les pone en ventaja a la hora de querer aprender alguna otra lengua Romance.

La documentación y los vínculos enviadoes han sido muy útiles, y ya he estado leyendo algunos de ellos.

Tambien sus detalladas explicaciones sobre el origen, sistema de vocales, historia, etc han sido de gran ayuda.

Muchas gracias:

Miquel
Pere Joan
y a todos los que colaboraron con aclarar las dudas que tenía

Moltes gràcies, fins desprès!!

Pete de Peru
Un Mallorquí.   Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:03 pm GMT
Salut Pete, i gràcies de les teves paraules.

Dos fills meus han viscut a Tarapoto. Tot quant en diuen és molt bo.

Quan parlen espanyol, tenen accent peruà.

Miquel Adrover
Pete   Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:31 am GMT
<<Dos fills meus han viscut a Tarapoto. Tot quant en diuen és molt bo.>>

Tarapoto es hermoso...

<<Quan parlen espanyol, tenen accent peruà. >>

Jajaja, que gracia...

Saludos

Pete
Sergio   Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:51 pm GMT
Hola Miquel,

Soy mexicano, y me encantan las lenguas romances. Tengo una pregunta para ti sobre el catalán.
El equivalente al pretérito indefinido el español en catalán, ¿es siempre perifrástico en la lengua hablada o hay zonas donde se usa la forma simple de manera cotidiana?

Forma perifrástica: vaig cantar
Forma simple: cantí

¿Usar la forma simple sonaría pretencioso, anticuado, ridículo o simplemente raro?

Por otro lado, la "ll" catalana vista desde una perspectiva purista, ¿es el sonido equivalente al "gli" italiano o incluso al sonido original "ll" español? es que he escuchado a algunas personas de Barcelona, que pronuncian esta "ll" como "y", que a su vez, es como la mayoría de los hispanoparlantes pronunciamos la "ll".

Por último, la vocal neutra, ¿es solamente la "e" no acentuada o también la "a" no acentuada?, y si es así, ¿siempre que no se acentúan son pronunciadas como neutras o hay alguna regla, o es una cuestión que se tiene que aprender de memoria?

A falta de mejores referencias, y de la poca oferta de literatura en catalán en México, me he contentado con leer dos libros de Pérez Reverte: El profesor d'esgrima y la taula de flandes. Cuanto más leo en catalán, más me gusta, aunque soy incapaz de articular una sola frase en este idioma.

Si me puedes recomendar algún escritor catalán que no sea traducción de otra lengua original, te lo agradecería enormemente.
Sergio   Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:55 pm GMT
Hola de nuevo Miquel,

Ya que tienes tan buen dominio del francés, vengo con otra pregunta.

Los pronombres catalanes hi/en, que tienen sus equivalentes franceses y/en, ¿tienen una simetría perfecta con sus contrapartes francesas en cuanto a su uso? es decir, ¿siempre que se usa alguno en una de las dos lenguas también se aplica en el caso correspondiente a la otra o no necesariamente hayuna correspondencia?

Si además conoces los pronombres italianos ci/ne sería interesante extender la comparación.

Curioso que en español y portugués estos pronombres hayan caído en desuso, sobreviviendo solamente en locuciones como "por ende" (de ahí), allende (más allá de) o palabras como "hay" (ha + y).

Si alguien que lea esto tiene información sobre el tema, podría aportar algo valioso aquí.