Spanish Pronunciation

Thank you Ayazid, for your contribution. Since you provide an example of [h] by a Venezuelan speaker (their president), I will provide a link to examples of [x] by the Uruguayan president. In the very opening sentence:

"Su ma[x]estad, Don [x]uan Carlos de Borbón"

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Thank you Ayazid, for your contribution. Since you provide an example of [h] by a Venezuelan speaker (their president), I will provide a link to examples of [x] by the Uruguayan president. In the very opening sentence:

"Su ma[x]estad, Don [x]uan Carlos de Borbón, Señores [x]efes de estado y de gobierno"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HQcnXuBY7E

<<My pronunciation does not differ greatly from the pronunciation of the Spaniards I've met and listened to.>>

Gabriel, you puzzle me. You say that Uruguayans and Argentinians pronounce the letter "J" like Spaniards but I pasted a video here to show Annabelle Morison how is pronounced the name "Joaquín". I'd say I pronounce that word like the guy in the video and that guy is Argentinian and I'm Costa Rican, so how do you explain that ?

I'm not sure about Uruguayans since I've not heard many but Argentinians. To my hears both accents sound the same specially because of the "sh" thing.

Even my niece got married an Argentinian and he doesn't pronounce the "J" or "G" like Spaniards do.

Even you can hear Sabina saying "Vir[x]encita" and it's different to "[h]oaquin" said by the Argentinian guy.

I'm afraid I don't trust your perceptual abilities as much Aldo, if you think that the reporter said [h]oaquín. He
Sabina acually says vir[X]encita, using the uvular allophone, common before /e/. Maybe it's this allophone that you find particularly characteristic of Spain. It does occur sometimes in my own dialect though, especially when emphatic.

"Mirá que sos jodido, che"
[mi'4a_" ke_o 'so_oh Xo_o'DiDo 'tSe_o]

So, to summarize: For the phoneme /x/ in Spanish we have several allophones: [h] in the Caribbean and Southern Spain (Andalusia). [x] in the rest of Spain and the River Plate (with [X] as a positional allophone or stylistic variant) and I'm pretty confident Mexico as well. I'm also aware that a palatal [C] can be heard in Chile.

I'm going to re-post my link to my own production of words containing /x/. I also attempt a pronunciation with [h] for them. I wish you could tell me what you think of it, if you perceive a difference, and which pronunciation is closer to yours. Later I will upload a list of the same words using [X].

<<Here's a list of some words with [x] followed by a link in which I pronounce all those words, first with [x] as I would normally do, then with [h] as some speakers in Latin America do.

Joaquín
Canjear
Jalea
Caja
México
Registro

http://media.putfile.com/Words-with-x >>

Judging from both pronunciations, I could tell that the second version of each pronunciation, especially Joaquín and México, sound closer to how I've clearly heard them pronounced by a couple of friends of mine, Margaríta and César, who actually happen to be natives of México.

I heard your recordings Gabriel but sincerely I can't note much difference between them and definitively Spaniards pronounce it much much stronger than that, as I said like freeing the throat of phlegm.

All the words sounded normal to me, except maybe for the subtitution of letter 's' by a letter 'j' in the word 'registro', which people in some countries pronounce it the same way like in Argentina, Chile, Venezuela, Nicaragua and others, something like "regijtro" or "re[h]i[h]tro" if you prefer.

Aldo: Te voy a escribir en español porque me parece que no me entendés cuando te hablo en inglés. Si no podés notar ninguna diferencia entre Ca[x]a y ca[h]a, me parece que no vale la pena que pierda el tiempo discutiendo fonética y fonología con alguien que evidentemente no solo nunca leyó nada sobre esos temas sino que tampoco tiene habilidades perceptuales como para distinguir sonidos diferentes. Esto queda además demostrado cuando decís que yo digo, en mi primer lista de palabras, re[h]i[h]tro. Es cierto que mi /s/ se realiza como [h] en estas posiciones, pero decir que es iɡual a la primera ˈɡˈ es un disparate. Opinás sin saber y no entendés razones.
Ya te dije que lo vos percibís como soltar flema de la garganta es un alófono uvular de [x], más concretamente, [X]. Si no comprendés lo que quiero decir con "uvular" abrí un libro antes de abrir la boca. Esa pronunciación es común en España, pero no es la única.

Como te decia tu lista de palabras me suena igual porque realmente no creo que el español necesite ser tan sutil como para que valga la pena seguir insistiendo en buscar tales diferencias.

En primer lugar tu fuiste el que empezo diciendo que los españoles y los Uruguayos/Argentinos pronunciaban la "J" en forma similiar, lo que encuentro de verdad un total disparate. Hay un abismo entre como pronuncian ellos y cualquier pais de America.

<<me suena igual porque realmente no creo>>

Es decir, tu percepción está afectada por tus ideas, tus preconceptos, tu ideología. En fonética y fonología nos interesa describir, usando un vocabulario científico y los instrumentos necesarios, los aspectos de producción y percepción oral de la lengua. Si esta actividad te parece inútil (pues creés que el español no debe ser "tan sutil") estás en todo tu derecho. Pero abstenete entonces de opinar de estos temas, a menos que estes dispuesto a debatir seriamente, y, sobre todo, a leer primero lo que dice el otro y reflexionar un poco.
Tus comentarios, Aldo, parecen arrogantes desde la ignorancia, como pretender describir de un plumazo "cualquier país de América". Te pido que me des el beneficio de la duda, y me dejes opinar al menos acerca de mi propio dialecto, que en cuanto a producción de la /x/ se parece más al español de Madrid o de Oviedo que al de Caracas o al de de San José.

Te voy a mandar en un próximo mensaje, una serie de referencias bibliográficas, para que veas que lo que digo no es un capricho ni una arbitrariedad, sino un fenómeno linguístico estudiado.

Mientras tanto, y ya que no nos diste una muestra de cómo vos producís el fonema en cuestión, me dediqué a buscar en youtube programas de Costa Rica para analizarlos. Confirmé claramente que usan predominantemente [h]. Además, el dialecto difiere del mío en otro hecho interesante, muchas veces usan [r\] en vez de [r] para el fonema /r/. Es decir, un sonido aproximante en vez del vibrante.

Aquí hay un programa de Costa Rica:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jy5WyuBn_qk

e[h]emplar (0039)
e[h]emplares (0101)
e[h]ército (0105)
[h]entileza (0112)
tecnoló[h]icos (0125)
traba[h]ar (0144)

Un programa uruguayo:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NG8CdIJEqqA

[x]óvenes (0005)
traba[x]o (0010)
[x]unto (0011)
ori[x]inal (0015)
ima[x]en (0025)
de[x]ar (0044)
estraté[x]ico (0050)

Te pido especial atención al minuto 03:03 y la palabra:

persona[X]e. Acá el hablante usa el alófono uvular, ese que vos notás como "liberar flema de la garganta", y que decís que es solo de España.

Y para que lo compares con el español de España, otro video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LnDVG0l-SbE

El primer presentador dice:

traba[x]o (0025)
ima[x]inarán (0031) (los alófonos velares como los uruguayos)

Más adelante la voz de la periodista dice:

[X]osé (0149) (el mismo alófono uvular que usa el uruguayo antes)

y hay otros ejemplos más de [X] y de [x], pero ninguno de [h].

En suma, lo que te estoy diciendo desde hace días no es un capricho ni una arbitrariedad, es un hecho comprobable y estudiado por los linguistas.

I agree with Gabriel, Uruguayos and Argentinos pronounced =j= similiar to that of the Spanish. I have noticed this on Argentinean channels as well as talked to those people in person and have concluded it does. Mexicans tend to as well (e.g. Singers / Artists of Mexico tend to) and it's nothing bad.....it's just goes to show we're not all different and pronunciation is in a way similar to all the varaints out there.

Regards.

The guest above was me, and I apologize if I went on a tirade there. I was just eager to make my point.

Very nice explanation of yours, Gabriel!

I'd like to know whether Chile is the only area in the Spanish speaking areas that has a palatalized [C] sound as in German "ich".

As for [X] and [h], I think it's not black and white. There are variations in between. sometimes the [X] is harder, sometimes it's softer, but not as soft as Colombian [h].

I remember watching news from Spain, and this one guy's pronunciation of J just "hurt" my ear because it was very hard/guttural. It struck me because other speakers' J are generally not as hard. I guess he came from somewhere in Western Spain (?).

Saludos,


Ian

There is a trend in Spain which consists in pronouncing the /x/ phoneme as "gue", "gui", because /x/ is considered too rude. It's still not widely spread in Spain and it is discouraged by the scholars of RAE. Early in the XIX century this fashion was introduced by some intellectuals but it failed to become mainstream.

I'm Colombian and I pronounce it as [h], I found this out because I have a sore throat and when I say [x] it hurts, but when I casually said mujer, virgen, agencia it didn't hurt. Also, I've noticed it many times in case the hurts/does not hurt distinction is not considered accurate.
Y sí hay dos sonidos distintos, no he oñido con atención la jota rioplatense pero pronto lo haré.