Los estudiantes de Espanol

Yo vivo en California y yo aprendo Espanol en el colegio (high school). Desde el primer ano hasta este ano (cuatros anos), las maestras nos ensena que la "c" y la "z" se pronuncia como la "s."

Esta manera de pronunciacion es la de los hispanohablantes en las Americas, yo se. Mi pregunta sigue: En los paises afuera de las Americas, cual manera de pronunciacion se usa? La manera de las Americas o la de Espana, con la "c" y la "z" se pronucia como "th" de Ingles?

Lo siento que no puedo escribir los accentos. Mi teclado no ofrece esa funcion y yo soy demasiado perezoso. No quiero buscar los combinaciones de ALT+numeros.

Forgive me :)

En Amérique latine, le z ce prononce comme le "c" ou le "s" que je sache, mais en Espagne il se prononce comme le "th" de "thin", en Europe on l'apprend ainsi, car c'est l'Espagnol officiel et standard.
Les andalous ne le prononcent pas ainsi, et c'est en allant conquérir l'Amérique que ces colons du sud de l'Espagne influencèrent la façon de parler en Amérique.
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In Latin America, "la Zeta" it pronounced as the "c" or the "s" which I know, but in Spain they pronounce as the "th" of " thin ", in Europe we learn it, because it's the official and standard Spanish.
The Andalusian don't so pronounce it, and while going to conquer America, these colonists of the South of Spain influenced the way of speaking in America.
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En América latina, "la Zeta" se pronuncia como el "c" o el "s", pero en España se pronuncia como el "th" de "thin", en Europa nos estudiamos así, porque es español oficial y estándar.
Los andaluces no lo pronuncian así, y justo yendo a conquistar América, estos colonos del sur de España influyeron sobre el modo de hablar en América.

Si, es correcto.

<<En América latina, "la Zeta" se pronuncia como el "c" o el "s", pero en España se pronuncia como el "th" de "thin", en Europa nos estudiamos así, porque es español oficial y estándar.>>

Pero el sonido es "th", pero claro y fuerte. No como algunos Americanos lo pronuncian con un sonido corto que suena casi como "t", ni como los londinenses que lo pronuncian a veces como una "f".

Pedro de Perú

<<The Andalusian don't so pronounce it, and while going to conquer America, these colonists of the South of Spain influenced the way of speaking in America. >>

Is there any evidence for this? Why would the Andalusian influence the accent and not the Castilian, the Galician, etc.? Had this Andalusian trait diverged before the conquest? Was perhaps the realization of 'z' as [T] a later innovation in Spain?

I know how the Z is pronounced in Spain, but my question is: How do Spanish learners learners in Asia or Africa pronounce it?

And why do Americans learn it the Latino American way, and not the Standard Spanish way?

<<Is there any evidence for this? Why would the Andalusian influence the accent and not the Castilian, the Galician, etc.? Had this Andalusian trait diverged before the conquest? Was perhaps the realization of 'z' as [T] a later innovation in Spain?>>

Among the Spaniards who arrived in the New World, the Andalusians and Canary Islanders outnumbered the Castilians and Galicians since they, being a poorer lot, often served in the military or worked as deckhands (and think of how many deckhands are needed on a single ship). The Northern Spaniards were usually richer and therefore, had no real need to settle in the New World. Thus, the speech of the majority became the dominant speech of the land.

-ce / ci / za- are always pronounced as -se / si / sa- in LATIN-AMERICA.

However, in many parts of Spain
-ce / ci / za- is pronounced as -the / thi / tha-.

This is also similar to Italian & Latin pronunciation of -ce / ci / za
Italian:-che / chi / t(sa)- = ce / ci / za
Latin: -que / qui / tia- = ce / ci / tia
Castilian: -the / thi / tha- = ce / ci / tha

It's simple... the majority who speaks Spanish in the Americas, speak the Latin America way. The accent In Spain can confuse if you've never been exposed to it. (Then again all Spanish accents can confuse) I remember my friends meeting me for the 1st time. THEY HAD A HARD TIME UNDERSTANDING ME.
They said I speak too fast, everthing sounds harsh, and I "lisp" z,ce,ci. They also say i pronounce my S like sh, or in some positions, like in vision. My R like a flap mixed with a zhhzhs then like vision. My ll and y at times like the word in vision.

I'm Spanish and Mexican. I was raised with my grandfather, he is from Spain.

When I first Heard a Puerto Rican... .........I was lost. Actully I still get confused when they open their mouth.

Marc, just to make it clear,
in Italian:-che / chi / t(sa) is pronounced: keh/ki/??

I'm not sure what t(sa) is supposed to be. z? Yes, the "z" is pronounced "ts".

">in Italian:-che / chi / t(sa) is pronounced: keh/ki/??<"

Sorry if I forgot to mention this, I was doing it from a Spanish pronunciation perspective.

I'm not convinced that this is something that can be explained away by claiming most immigrants to the American continent were from Andalusia (I'm looking for a source to confirm this). I know my region received a high influx of immigrants from Galicia. Is it known for a fact that at the time of the conquest, Castilians had [T] for their 'z' and 'ce, ci' whereas Andalusians had [s] for those?

<< Is it known for a fact that at the time of the conquest, Castilians had [T] for their 'z' and 'ce, ci' whereas Andalusians had [s] for those? >>

The Castilians didn't exactly pronounce their z's and ce/i's as [T] at the time of conquest. The Castilian [T] and the Andalusian seseo are the end results of a centuries-long trend that began in the 16th century to merge the six sibilant phonemes that existed in Spanish at the time of conquest. The Castilians took one path, while the Andalusians took another. Of course, it wasn't all clear and cut-dried. Some regions of Andalucia differentiate between c/z and s.

Further reading:

"Historical Evolution"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceceo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_Spanish

http://www.alsintl.com/languages/spanish2.htm

A Quick Guide to Old Spanish Pronunciation

The great majority of Old Spanish sounds have not changed much over the centuries. The following table gives letters and sounds which no longer exist phonemically in Spanish. *Click on a sound, or word sample, to hear how it may have been pronounced (we have no Old Spaniards around to tell us for sure):

ts usually written:ç coraçon ("heart")
dz usually written: z fazer ("to do")
sh usually written: x dixo ("he said")
zh usually written: i, j, ge oios, ojos ("eyes")
s usually written: ss, s-, -s apriessa ("quickly")
z usually written: -s- mesurado ("discreet")

Work citated:
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/santiago/osppron.html


I hope this enlightens the subject regarding about Old-Castilian. One can even listen to the suggested pronunciation as well. ;)

<<And why do Americans learn it the Latino American way, and not the Standard Spanish way? >>

The answer is easy: closeness. In the same manner Europeans learn Spanish the Spaniard way and Latin Americans learn English the U.S. way.