forgot or forgotten

furrykef   Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:11 am GMT
I'm a native speaker of American English and the "correct" word is definitely "forgotten". George W. Bush isn't exactly the best guide for proper grammar. He's very well-known for "Bushisms" that distort the language. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushism

As for "We are driving in the same car", this seems very likely to be a metaphor that was made up on the spot. Either your interpretation or Josh's is possible, and it really depends on the surrounding context, but as it is, I'm inclined to go with Josh's due to the similarity to "we're in the same boat".

There's also another possible interpretation, though it'd be better worded slightly differently, such as "We're both trying to drive the same car", the idea being that a car can only be driven by one person at a time. In other words, they're both trying to "steer in opposite directions" and one of them needs to be in control. But I don't think this interpretation is too likely if it was worded the way you said it.

- Kef
ESL   Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:49 am GMT
Kef, Josh's explanation is spot on. And, you are also right, that it is more like a metaphor than the real expression.

When Bush said the sentence, there was a pause of 3 seconds on his part. I think he might have realized his mistake but he had carried on as he noticed that the general audience was busy in clapping as usual and might not have paid attention to his grammatical mistakes.
Kendra   Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:20 pm GMT
a) Should auld acquaintance be forgot, And never brought to mind?
b) Should auld acquaintance be forgotten, And never broughten to mind?

Pick your choice
Be consistent.
Josh Lalonde   Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:42 pm GMT
Kendra, your example is not really useful for a few reasons. First, this is in Scots, so which one is correct here is of little relevance for Standard English. Second, there is no reason why we should have to "be consistent". Just because I use 'forgotten' doesn't mean I should have to use 'boughten' as well. Should I also say 'caughten' 'soughten', etc.?
GMC   Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:15 pm GMT
<<Kendra, your example is not really useful for a few reasons. First, this is in Scots, so which one is correct here is of little relevance for Standard English. Second, there is no reason why we should have to "be consistent". Just because I use 'forgotten' doesn't mean I should have to use 'boughten' as well. Should I also say 'caughten' 'soughten', etc.?>>

lol. I'm from the upper Midwest and I actually do use those forms e.g "boughten", "broughten", "soughten", "caughten", "thoughten", "foughten" etc.
Travis   Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:57 pm GMT
>>Kendra, your example is not really useful for a few reasons. First, this is in Scots, so which one is correct here is of little relevance for Standard English. Second, there is no reason why we should have to "be consistent". Just because I use 'forgotten' doesn't mean I should have to use 'boughten' as well. Should I also say 'caughten' 'soughten', etc.?<<

The matter is also that words like "boughten", "broughten", "soughten", "caughten", "thoughten", and "foughten", to use GMC's examples, are highly dialectal in nature, and I would not recommend their use if one is not to be speaking a dialect from the Upper Midwest in which such are used. One may hear "boughten" on a wider basis in North American English dialects overall, but mind one that it is likely to be quite marked in such dialects.
english teacher   Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:46 am GMT
>>Kendra, your example is not really useful for a few reasons. First, this is in Scots, so which one is correct here is of little relevance for Standard English. Second, there is no reason why we should have to "be consistent". Just because I use 'forgotten' doesn't mean I should have to use 'boughten' as well. Should I also say 'caughten' 'soughten', etc.?<<

>>The matter is also that words like "boughten", "broughten", "soughten", "caughten", "thoughten", and "foughten", to use GMC's examples, are highly dialectal in nature, and I would not recommend their use if one is not to be speaking a dialect from the Upper Midwest in which such are used. One may hear "boughten" on a wider basis in North American English dialects overall, but mind one that it is likely to be quite marked in such dialects. <<

travis is right, one shouldn't really use these words unless considered as dialectal in nature... mostly since "boughten" and the others are not even real words in the english language... the word "bought" is the past tense of "buy", hence "boughten" is redundantly in the double past tense.
Travis   Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:20 pm GMT
>>travis is right, one shouldn't really use these words unless considered as dialectal in nature... mostly since "boughten" and the others are not even real words in the english language... the word "bought" is the past tense of "buy", hence "boughten" is redundantly in the double past tense.<<

Ahem - they are real words *here*, even if they are not listed in any dictionaries or present in any standard varieties...
Josh Lalonde   Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:04 pm GMT
I didn't mean to disparage the usage of 'boughten', 'caughten' etc. What I meant was than just because I use forgotten doesn't mean I should use all these other forms as well.
Josh Lalonde   Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:18 pm GMT
Should be "What I meant was that just..."
GMC   Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:05 pm GMT
>>travis is right, one shouldn't really use these words unless considered as dialectal in nature... mostly since "boughten" and the others are not even real words in the english language... the word "bought" is the past tense of "buy", hence "boughten" is redundantly in the double past tense.<<

No it's not, considering the fact that "bought" and "boughten" actually don't have the same meaning. "bought" is a past tense and "boughten" is a past participle. It's not redundantly in the past tense at all, as it's not in the past tense. In standard varieties, "bought" is used for both past tense and past participle.
furrykef   Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:23 pm GMT
> the word "bought" is the past tense of "buy", hence "boughten" is redundantly in the double past tense.

If you looked carefully, you would see that, if that were true, by analogy "forgotten" would also be "double past tense". ;)

Anyway, what determines what's a "real word" is actual usage, not dictionaries. It's not a real word in any standard dialect, no, but not all dialects are standard.

- Kef
Mr Sam   Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:07 pm GMT
All dictionaries I have list FORGOT as the US form


get, got, got (US gotten)
forget, forgot, forgotten (US forgot)
dive, dived (US dove), dived
plead, pleaded (US pled), pleaded (US pled)
prove, proved, proved (US proven)



and so on...
GMC   Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:11 pm GMT
I'm from the U.S. and I use "forgotten", "dived", and "pleaded". The terms "forgot" (for the past participle), "dove" and "pled" do exist in the United States but they are by no means universal to all speakers here.
Emilie   Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:44 am GMT
"In American English it's "out the window", in British English it's "out of the window". Why did American's drop the "of"?"

And why do the British throw in apostrophes where they aren't necessary. (that should be "Americans", not "American's")