Many consider the French language to be snobbish. Several people don't consider French beautiful or appealing. For all of those who like French, it seems that there are just as many who dislike it. Why is French considered snobbish?
French Snobbish?
When most people think of french it is of upper-class aristocratic fashion obsessed people.
Jealousy.
Jealousy.
I don't dislike french from france, the accent sounds very pleasant but I find it easier to speak french with a canadian accent.
I've heard that for ex spanish people find brazilian portuguese easier to understand and speak.
I thought that was curious, since they have the portuguese next door, but when I (a portuguese speaker) heard latin american spanish for the first time (on TV) I actually found it to be more clear and better pronounced than spanish from spain. In my opinion, the best latin american spanish I've heard so far is that from Peru and Mexico. The "worst" spanish, even less comprehensible than that of Spain, is the spanish from Argentina (I don't understand a word they say) and from Cuba.
Is this a common phenomenon? Are the linguistic varieties from the New World really more comprehensible than the european ones? I think that is true for English, Spanish (except argentinian and cuban) and apparently Portuguese.
I've heard that for ex spanish people find brazilian portuguese easier to understand and speak.
I thought that was curious, since they have the portuguese next door, but when I (a portuguese speaker) heard latin american spanish for the first time (on TV) I actually found it to be more clear and better pronounced than spanish from spain. In my opinion, the best latin american spanish I've heard so far is that from Peru and Mexico. The "worst" spanish, even less comprehensible than that of Spain, is the spanish from Argentina (I don't understand a word they say) and from Cuba.
Is this a common phenomenon? Are the linguistic varieties from the New World really more comprehensible than the european ones? I think that is true for English, Spanish (except argentinian and cuban) and apparently Portuguese.
<Many consider the French language to be snobbish. Several people don't consider French beautiful or appealing. For all of those who like French, it seems that there are just as many who dislike it. Why is French considered snobbish?>
For many years it was the language of the elite, and the French played up this reputation.
For many years it was the language of the elite, and the French played up this reputation.
I have to admit that I have this impression of the French language, even though I do realize that this is only a stereotype and doesn't actually characterize French people.
Part of it has to do with the status of French words in the English language. There's usually no reason to say "raison d'être" instead of "reason for being" in English, other than to show off your vocabulary, which is of course snobbish behavior. The only logical reason to prefer the French version at all is to save a syllable... but it's harder to type correctly, it's a little harder to pronounce, and there's even the chance that the listener will have no idea what the phrase means even from context.
Similarly, many French words in English are notoriously difficult to spell and pronounce correctly, because the orthography and sometimes the phonology is so different from native English conventions. Making things more difficult than necessary is also snobbish behavior.
Finally, the sound of the French language is very nasally to me, and I think nasal sounds are associated with snobbery. For instance, a cartoonist who draws a caricature of a snobbish character is likely to give him a really big nose. I have no idea where this convention comes from, but it exists nonetheless. I also just don't really like the nasal sounds...
I don't hate the French language. I just don't have any particular affection for it either, I'm afraid.
- Kef
Part of it has to do with the status of French words in the English language. There's usually no reason to say "raison d'être" instead of "reason for being" in English, other than to show off your vocabulary, which is of course snobbish behavior. The only logical reason to prefer the French version at all is to save a syllable... but it's harder to type correctly, it's a little harder to pronounce, and there's even the chance that the listener will have no idea what the phrase means even from context.
Similarly, many French words in English are notoriously difficult to spell and pronounce correctly, because the orthography and sometimes the phonology is so different from native English conventions. Making things more difficult than necessary is also snobbish behavior.
Finally, the sound of the French language is very nasally to me, and I think nasal sounds are associated with snobbery. For instance, a cartoonist who draws a caricature of a snobbish character is likely to give him a really big nose. I have no idea where this convention comes from, but it exists nonetheless. I also just don't really like the nasal sounds...
I don't hate the French language. I just don't have any particular affection for it either, I'm afraid.
- Kef
I speak both French and English but find English is generally more nasally than French. This is despite the fact that French has phonemic nasals. Somehow this nasal quality creeps into English vowels and not just around 'm' and 'n' consonants.
Even though American English and say, English from Manchester / Liverpool sound more nasally than RP, I definitely find RP snobbier.
Even though American English and say, English from Manchester / Liverpool sound more nasally than RP, I definitely find RP snobbier.
Indeed. I don't find French to be a particularly nasal language at all. It is certainly less so than a lot of American English.
<Indeed. I don't find French to be a particularly nasal language at all. It is certainly less so than a lot of American English.>
3 to 5 vowels[¹] out of a total of 16 to 18 vowels are nasal in French. Could someone provide figures for the various English dialects?
[1] [ ɛ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ] or [ ɛ̃ œ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ], depending on the dialect.
3 to 5 vowels[¹] out of a total of 16 to 18 vowels are nasal in French. Could someone provide figures for the various English dialects?
[1] [ ɛ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ] or [ ɛ̃ œ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ], depending on the dialect.
<<
<Indeed. I don't find French to be a particularly nasal language at all. It is certainly less so than a lot of American English.>
3 to 5 vowels[¹] out of a total of 16 to 18 vowels are nasal in French. Could someone provide figures for the various English dialects?
[1] [ ɛ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ] or [ ɛ̃ œ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ], depending on the dialect. >>
Le nombre de voyelles n'est pas important, c'est le nombre de fois où il est utilisé dans une phrase qui compte.
/L@ nO~bR d@ vwajel ne paz'E~poRta~, se l@ nO~bR d@ fwa u ilet'ytilize da~z'yn fRaz ki cO~t/
---------------
The number of vowels isn't important, it's the number of times when they are used in a sentence which counts.
The nasality give a lot of advantages:
The nasal vowels allow to avoid some dullness in the phonology, and a rigid pronounciation. The pronunciation is faster and simple for a native French-speaker than a native Spanish-speaker for example.
<Indeed. I don't find French to be a particularly nasal language at all. It is certainly less so than a lot of American English.>
3 to 5 vowels[¹] out of a total of 16 to 18 vowels are nasal in French. Could someone provide figures for the various English dialects?
[1] [ ɛ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ] or [ ɛ̃ œ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ], depending on the dialect. >>
Le nombre de voyelles n'est pas important, c'est le nombre de fois où il est utilisé dans une phrase qui compte.
/L@ nO~bR d@ vwajel ne paz'E~poRta~, se l@ nO~bR d@ fwa u ilet'ytilize da~z'yn fRaz ki cO~t/
---------------
The number of vowels isn't important, it's the number of times when they are used in a sentence which counts.
The nasality give a lot of advantages:
The nasal vowels allow to avoid some dullness in the phonology, and a rigid pronounciation. The pronunciation is faster and simple for a native French-speaker than a native Spanish-speaker for example.
>>3 to 5 vowels[¹] out of a total of 16 to 18 vowels are nasal in French. Could someone provide figures for the various English dialects?<<
The 4 nasals 'in', 'un', 'on', 'an' in French are phonemic.
In English, nasals are not phonemic but nasality is often an inherent quality. e.g. "tonne" in English = [tO~n] or [tQ~n] or [tA~:n] but no nasal in French = [tOn].
The 4 nasals 'in', 'un', 'on', 'an' in French are phonemic.
In English, nasals are not phonemic but nasality is often an inherent quality. e.g. "tonne" in English = [tO~n] or [tQ~n] or [tA~:n] but no nasal in French = [tOn].
Guest : « The 4 nasals 'in', 'un', 'on', 'an' in French are phonemic. In English, nasals are not phonemic but nasality is often an inherent quality (...) ».
Tout à fait.
Guest : « I don't find French to be a particularly nasal language at all. »
Je suis d'accord avec toi si on se limite à l'inventaire vocalique nasal (phonémique) qui est assez pauvre comparé à celui d'une époque de l'ancien français (avant la vague forte de dénasalisation) ou à celui du portugais. En revanche l'inventaire nasovocalique phonétique est assez complexe (surtout si on prend en compte toutes les variantes régionales d'Europe, d'Amérique, d'Afrique et d'Asie).
A-S : « The number of vowels isn't important, it's the number of times when they are used in a sentence which counts. »
Entièrement d'accord. Bien que disposant d'un inventaire nasovocalique phonémique fort réduit, le français mobilise les voyelles nasales fréquemment.
Tout à fait.
Guest : « I don't find French to be a particularly nasal language at all. »
Je suis d'accord avec toi si on se limite à l'inventaire vocalique nasal (phonémique) qui est assez pauvre comparé à celui d'une époque de l'ancien français (avant la vague forte de dénasalisation) ou à celui du portugais. En revanche l'inventaire nasovocalique phonétique est assez complexe (surtout si on prend en compte toutes les variantes régionales d'Europe, d'Amérique, d'Afrique et d'Asie).
A-S : « The number of vowels isn't important, it's the number of times when they are used in a sentence which counts. »
Entièrement d'accord. Bien que disposant d'un inventaire nasovocalique phonémique fort réduit, le français mobilise les voyelles nasales fréquemment.
" but when I (a portuguese speaker) heard latin american spanish for the first time (on TV) I actually found it to be more clear and better pronounced than spanish from spain. In my opinion, the best latin american spanish I've heard so far is that from Peru and Mexico. The "worst" spanish, even less comprehensible than that of Spain, is the spanish from Argentina (I don't understand a word they say) and from Cuba."
I found this interesting. I found the Spanish from Argentina easier (clearer) than Mexican Spanish (which I still "fear" missing a word or two at times), I agree about Cuban Spanish though. However, my first language is English. Perhaps the sounds in our first language help determine what is distinct and what is not in subsequent languages we learn.
I found this interesting. I found the Spanish from Argentina easier (clearer) than Mexican Spanish (which I still "fear" missing a word or two at times), I agree about Cuban Spanish though. However, my first language is English. Perhaps the sounds in our first language help determine what is distinct and what is not in subsequent languages we learn.
Also there is a difference between a language spoken colloquially and spoken on TV or in movies or when someone is reading aloud and must be clear for the sake of understanding.
There are also differences between speakers, like those between educated people (teachers, professionals, actors) and uneducated people (immigrants, poor people) etc.
There are also differences between speakers, like those between educated people (teachers, professionals, actors) and uneducated people (immigrants, poor people) etc.
I like Canadian French, especially that from the New Brunswick area.
I don't like French from France.
I don't like French from France.