Sander : c'est pas très élégant de conseiller aux gens de quitter Antimoon, même si c'est pour rejoindre Langcafé. Antimoon te permet de t'exprimer. Tu n'en veux plus ? Très bien. Mais au moins ne mords pas la main qui t'a nourri. Encore une fois tu mélanges tes problèmes persos sur ce site avec la vécu des autres membres...
what's your favourite Slavic language?
Oh well, having read Linguist's posts about Ukrainian, I can only say a few things:
1) He doesn't know anything about languages he's speaking about. What 'every vulgar Russian word' would be normal in Ukrainian? Examples.
2) He thinks he can speak for people in other countries about who they are and who they feel without having a slightest idea about these countries and the realities in these countries. It's so freaking annoying when somebody totally clueless voices opinions on my behalf and on behalf of my people.
3) His English is rather crappy, too.
4) And last but not least, he's nothing more but a regular fascist pig. Period.
1) He doesn't know anything about languages he's speaking about. What 'every vulgar Russian word' would be normal in Ukrainian? Examples.
2) He thinks he can speak for people in other countries about who they are and who they feel without having a slightest idea about these countries and the realities in these countries. It's so freaking annoying when somebody totally clueless voices opinions on my behalf and on behalf of my people.
3) His English is rather crappy, too.
4) And last but not least, he's nothing more but a regular fascist pig. Period.
Okay, my previous post probably lacked proper self-control, but when some piece of dung tells me one language is inferior to another, that makes me freaking angry.
My apologies to all those who've been exposed to this unwillingly.
My apologies to all those who've been exposed to this unwillingly.
Greg,
As long as there are sick people on this forum or as long as Mjd or Tom aren't cleaning it regularly, I will continue to do this, because some people still actually come here for serious matters and not to be called nazis.
As long as there are sick people on this forum or as long as Mjd or Tom aren't cleaning it regularly, I will continue to do this, because some people still actually come here for serious matters and not to be called nazis.
I don't see why almost every thread must degenerate to an exchange of insults one way or the other... Even if some points raised by others make you feel angry or revolted, there is no need to take them personally. I find it particularly wrong to insult anybody else's country or language, even if it was meant as a joke. I hope I have not added any to the fuel to the flame with my posts about Ukrainian and the Ukraine: it's true I find the language a little strange, sometimes a little funny, but it doesn't mean I look down on Ukrainians: actually, I know some Ukrainians personally, so I know something of the country's troubled past and present as well. This has also helped me dispense with the stereotype common in Hungary, which usually relates Ukrainians to some sort of maffia involvement.
So here are my reactions to some of the recent posts:
To Frances,
With all my respect, I think that on the whole it is not proper to call Armenia a "marginalised" country. Armenian is an unique culture with a history dating back to Roman or even pre-Roman times (some historians even hold the opinion that the ancient culture of Urartu was of Armenian origin). It is also one of the most long-standing Christian cultures, along with that of Georgia (they adopted Christianity in the 3rd century AD). The reason why Armenia is at present a tiny country stuck between Iran, Turkey and Azerbaijan is its excessive share of tragic history during the 20th century (the country alone has been reduced to a fraction of its original size - it used to extend over large parts of what are now Eastern Turkey, and Armenians are now dispersed over the world due to what is regarded as one of the largest scale attempts at genocide by Turkish extremists during WWI). Even its national symbol, the mountain Ararat is is on Turkish teritory now, albeit very close to the Turkish-Armenian border.
To Anechka,
Welcome to the forum!
I think it is natural to find Croatian more beautiful than Russian if you live in Croatia. If you lived in Russia, it would be maybe the other way round. :) I like both languages, as I said earlier, but sometiems I feel they belong to two different worlds, they conjure rather different types of associations. Russian always sound more "grand" to me, while Croatian sounds familiar and intimate (doubtlessly due to the fact that it IS more familiar to me).
As I also grew up in ex-Yugoslavia (Vojvodina), I am familiar with both Serbian and Croatian, and I think that although the two are very similar, Croatian sounds a lot softer, and has more of a "local flavour" (the"je ne sais quoi", as you said), maybe due to the influence of the local dialects especially around Zagreb and in Dalmatia. I have also felt this with regard to Bosnian, maybe because the "ijekavica" sounds a little more pleasant to me than the "ekavica" spoken in Serbia, due to its palatal quality. I also like Croatian because it uses less loanwords (even the name of the months are originally Slavic, I believe only Polish and Czech have that besides Croatian).
So here are my reactions to some of the recent posts:
To Frances,
With all my respect, I think that on the whole it is not proper to call Armenia a "marginalised" country. Armenian is an unique culture with a history dating back to Roman or even pre-Roman times (some historians even hold the opinion that the ancient culture of Urartu was of Armenian origin). It is also one of the most long-standing Christian cultures, along with that of Georgia (they adopted Christianity in the 3rd century AD). The reason why Armenia is at present a tiny country stuck between Iran, Turkey and Azerbaijan is its excessive share of tragic history during the 20th century (the country alone has been reduced to a fraction of its original size - it used to extend over large parts of what are now Eastern Turkey, and Armenians are now dispersed over the world due to what is regarded as one of the largest scale attempts at genocide by Turkish extremists during WWI). Even its national symbol, the mountain Ararat is is on Turkish teritory now, albeit very close to the Turkish-Armenian border.
To Anechka,
Welcome to the forum!
I think it is natural to find Croatian more beautiful than Russian if you live in Croatia. If you lived in Russia, it would be maybe the other way round. :) I like both languages, as I said earlier, but sometiems I feel they belong to two different worlds, they conjure rather different types of associations. Russian always sound more "grand" to me, while Croatian sounds familiar and intimate (doubtlessly due to the fact that it IS more familiar to me).
As I also grew up in ex-Yugoslavia (Vojvodina), I am familiar with both Serbian and Croatian, and I think that although the two are very similar, Croatian sounds a lot softer, and has more of a "local flavour" (the"je ne sais quoi", as you said), maybe due to the influence of the local dialects especially around Zagreb and in Dalmatia. I have also felt this with regard to Bosnian, maybe because the "ijekavica" sounds a little more pleasant to me than the "ekavica" spoken in Serbia, due to its palatal quality. I also like Croatian because it uses less loanwords (even the name of the months are originally Slavic, I believe only Polish and Czech have that besides Croatian).
Talking about names of the months, I'm always confused when I see the Polish names of months, because they sound similar to the Croatian ones, yet I'm never sure which name stands for which month. So I'll list the Croatian names for the individual months, and I'd be very thankful if some Polish (or possibly Czech) speakers listed them in their own language.
So here they go:
January - sijecanj
February - veljaca
March - svibanj
April - travanj
May - svibanj
June - lipanj
July - srpanj
August - kolovoz
September - rujan
October - listopad
November - studeni
December - prosinac
So here they go:
January - sijecanj
February - veljaca
March - svibanj
April - travanj
May - svibanj
June - lipanj
July - srpanj
August - kolovoz
September - rujan
October - listopad
November - studeni
December - prosinac
Easterner,
No, your posts were perfectly fine, it's Linguist who got me going.
I would agree that ijekavica perhaps sounds 'softer' than ekavica, although it's still the latter that I personally prefer. I just find 'mleko' far easier to say than 'mlijeko'. Btw, Russian is also an ijekavski language, whilst Ukrainian is ikavski.
I'm not a Polish speaker, but Ukrainian also has Slavic names for months. It is interesting that many of them are the same as those in Croatian, but there is normally a one-month 'lag' between the corresponding names. I wonder if it has to do with climate differences.
January - січень
February - лютий
March - березень
April - квітень
May - травень
June - червень
July - липень
August - серпень
September - вересень
October - жовтень
November - листопад
December - грудень
No, your posts were perfectly fine, it's Linguist who got me going.
I would agree that ijekavica perhaps sounds 'softer' than ekavica, although it's still the latter that I personally prefer. I just find 'mleko' far easier to say than 'mlijeko'. Btw, Russian is also an ijekavski language, whilst Ukrainian is ikavski.
I'm not a Polish speaker, but Ukrainian also has Slavic names for months. It is interesting that many of them are the same as those in Croatian, but there is normally a one-month 'lag' between the corresponding names. I wonder if it has to do with climate differences.
January - січень
February - лютий
March - березень
April - квітень
May - травень
June - червень
July - липень
August - серпень
September - вересень
October - жовтень
November - листопад
December - грудень
Tricky question - to get back to the original question.
I love Polish, perhaps because it is the only Slavic language I know pretty well. I also like the way it has retained several (tricky) features of pronunciation and grammar which don't exist in other slavic languages. Someone mentioned the Slovak word for 'know' (I think it was"Wiedit'" ) this is similar to the Polsih Wiedziec, Wiedza etc. It is used for referring to knowing a fact rather than being familiar (with a name or place for example) which is "znac." Other Slavic languages seem to use znac/znat etc for "know."
Polish also has nasalised vowel sounds (the "e" and "a" with a tail/hook) which do not exist in most other Slavic languages, where the distnction has been lost.
As for the soft sounds of Polish, which some people don't seem to like, they have been compared with the rustling of leaves in windy weather - at least it can't be accused of being harsh or guttural.
All that said, I do like the sound of Czech - it sounds very sing song, it kind of reminds me of Welsh accents in English.
I don't really know too much about South Slav languages - they sound quite like Slovak to me, but I can't understand as much, and they keep saying "li" at the end of sentences... They sound alright.
The point made about Ukranian using "vulgar Russian words" as normal words sounds familiar...Slovak and Czech have lots of words with similar form but amusingly different meanings, which Poles go on about quite a lot.
Anyway, its obviously all subjectiwny.
I love Polish, perhaps because it is the only Slavic language I know pretty well. I also like the way it has retained several (tricky) features of pronunciation and grammar which don't exist in other slavic languages. Someone mentioned the Slovak word for 'know' (I think it was"Wiedit'" ) this is similar to the Polsih Wiedziec, Wiedza etc. It is used for referring to knowing a fact rather than being familiar (with a name or place for example) which is "znac." Other Slavic languages seem to use znac/znat etc for "know."
Polish also has nasalised vowel sounds (the "e" and "a" with a tail/hook) which do not exist in most other Slavic languages, where the distnction has been lost.
As for the soft sounds of Polish, which some people don't seem to like, they have been compared with the rustling of leaves in windy weather - at least it can't be accused of being harsh or guttural.
All that said, I do like the sound of Czech - it sounds very sing song, it kind of reminds me of Welsh accents in English.
I don't really know too much about South Slav languages - they sound quite like Slovak to me, but I can't understand as much, and they keep saying "li" at the end of sentences... They sound alright.
The point made about Ukranian using "vulgar Russian words" as normal words sounds familiar...Slovak and Czech have lots of words with similar form but amusingly different meanings, which Poles go on about quite a lot.
Anyway, its obviously all subjectiwny.
POLONAIS — FRANÇAIS
styczeń — janvier
luty — février
marzec — mars
kwiecień — avril
maj — mai
czerwiec — juin
lipiec — juillet
sierpień — août
wrzesień — septembre
październik — octobre
listopad — novembre
grudzień — décembre
styczeń — janvier
luty — février
marzec — mars
kwiecień — avril
maj — mai
czerwiec — juin
lipiec — juillet
sierpień — août
wrzesień — septembre
październik — octobre
listopad — novembre
grudzień — décembre
"he reason why Armenia is at present a tiny country stuck between Iran, Turkey and Azerbaijan is its excessive share of tragic history during the 20th century (the country alone has been reduced to a fraction of its original size - it used to extend over large parts of what are now Eastern Turkey, and Armenians are now dispersed over the world due to what is regarded as one of the largest scale attempts at genocide by Turkish extremists during WWI). Even its national symbol, the mountain Ararat is is on Turkish teritory now, albeit very close to the Turkish-Armenian border."
But thats what I perfectly meant by "marginalised". Maybe I used the definition in an incorrect way (ie not to mean to relegate someone to the lowest position in society). Armenians have been victims of genocide and cultural destruction, that is what I meant as being "marginalised". When an ethnic group that is destroyed or has been seriously damaged, that is tragic.
As far as I am concerned, members of such "genocided" groups should not speak out against other groups that have been placed in the same situation and who have had their right to self-determination stumped, otherwise I consider it utter hypocracy. They should be well aware of what other groups feel and what they are going through. Therefore members of such groups should keep their mouths shut and stop insulting other groups by calling their language "inferior" and claiming them to not exist, especially so when they claim ethincally that that they are different oppressing/dominating group but simply live in that country (and have subsequently been brainwashed by nationalist ideals).
But thats what I perfectly meant by "marginalised". Maybe I used the definition in an incorrect way (ie not to mean to relegate someone to the lowest position in society). Armenians have been victims of genocide and cultural destruction, that is what I meant as being "marginalised". When an ethnic group that is destroyed or has been seriously damaged, that is tragic.
As far as I am concerned, members of such "genocided" groups should not speak out against other groups that have been placed in the same situation and who have had their right to self-determination stumped, otherwise I consider it utter hypocracy. They should be well aware of what other groups feel and what they are going through. Therefore members of such groups should keep their mouths shut and stop insulting other groups by calling their language "inferior" and claiming them to not exist, especially so when they claim ethincally that that they are different oppressing/dominating group but simply live in that country (and have subsequently been brainwashed by nationalist ideals).
<<As far as I am concerned, members of such "genocided" groups should not speak out against other groups that have been placed in the same situation and who have had their right to self-determination stumped, otherwise I consider it utter hypocracy. They should be well aware of what other groups feel and what they are going through. Therefore members of such groups should keep their mouths shut and stop insulting other groups by calling their language "inferior" and claiming them to not exist, especially so when they claim ethincally that that they are different oppressing/dominating group but simply live in that country (and have subsequently been brainwashed by nationalist ideals). >>
I think you're the brainwashed one here. I don't feel obligated to keep my mouth shut, okay? I'm going to say whatever's on my mind. I suggest you stop drawing comparisons with the Armenian people, because the history is different and so are the problems they face.
And stop demonizing Bulgaria, because it's the only country that has actually helped FYROM. Which was the first country to officially recognize it as an independent republic? Who has been help and assistance for the past 14 years? And please stop whining. It's not my fault that every country in that region has a problem with FYROM.
I think you're the brainwashed one here. I don't feel obligated to keep my mouth shut, okay? I'm going to say whatever's on my mind. I suggest you stop drawing comparisons with the Armenian people, because the history is different and so are the problems they face.
And stop demonizing Bulgaria, because it's the only country that has actually helped FYROM. Which was the first country to officially recognize it as an independent republic? Who has been help and assistance for the past 14 years? And please stop whining. It's not my fault that every country in that region has a problem with FYROM.
1. I feel "FYROM" is a name that everyone has adopted as a forced compromise, which of course you will disagree with and I accept that.
2. "And stop demonizing Bulgaria" - you put those words in your own mouth. I didn't say everyone was like that. Most people are decent but there are going to be radicals in each race.
3. "It's not my fault that every country in that region has a problem with FYROM." - just because you are in a minority does not mean that you are wrong. For example - Hitler was in power in Germany in WW2, this does not mean the resistance was wrong.
5. Armenia is not relevant but I draw this as an argument to illustrate what I consider "hypocracy". I accept Armenia is not relevant.
6. Most Bulgarians and Macedonians wouldn't give a flying toss about these issues - they have their daily lives with their own personal problems to deal with and would consider each other as just another human being (with a different opinion).
7. I have a right to call myself whatever I want. If my religion is Jedi, then I can say that.
8. I have a right to self-determination and I feel that I am forced to relinquish my identity and feel bullied by you.
9. I don't feel Bulgarian.
9. My family has nothing to do with Bulgaria.
10. Mutual intelligibility is not an legitimate argument to a difference in language.
11. Calling any language hash is offensive. Every language is a jewel.
12. You irritate me.
13. Please accept that you can't change me.
14. You disagree with me and me with you and I accept that I cannot change your opinion and who you are so please agree to disagree.
15. I consider this discussion over. I'm sick of this fighting. Drop it.
THE END
Subject Closed.
2. "And stop demonizing Bulgaria" - you put those words in your own mouth. I didn't say everyone was like that. Most people are decent but there are going to be radicals in each race.
3. "It's not my fault that every country in that region has a problem with FYROM." - just because you are in a minority does not mean that you are wrong. For example - Hitler was in power in Germany in WW2, this does not mean the resistance was wrong.
5. Armenia is not relevant but I draw this as an argument to illustrate what I consider "hypocracy". I accept Armenia is not relevant.
6. Most Bulgarians and Macedonians wouldn't give a flying toss about these issues - they have their daily lives with their own personal problems to deal with and would consider each other as just another human being (with a different opinion).
7. I have a right to call myself whatever I want. If my religion is Jedi, then I can say that.
8. I have a right to self-determination and I feel that I am forced to relinquish my identity and feel bullied by you.
9. I don't feel Bulgarian.
9. My family has nothing to do with Bulgaria.
10. Mutual intelligibility is not an legitimate argument to a difference in language.
11. Calling any language hash is offensive. Every language is a jewel.
12. You irritate me.
13. Please accept that you can't change me.
14. You disagree with me and me with you and I accept that I cannot change your opinion and who you are so please agree to disagree.
15. I consider this discussion over. I'm sick of this fighting. Drop it.
THE END
Subject Closed.
Now she made it sound as if I started the whole arguement. I didn't call your language "hash", I'm not even sure what that means. I used the word kolchoz as Linguist did, because that's how it sounds to my ear. I didn't discuss national identity and other things like that. I don't know where you got that from. When did I say you should feel Bulgarian? You're probably referring to some very old posts which you haven't let go, yet. If you think that the only thing I do all day long is dwell on those issues - boy, are you wrong, but since this is a message board concerning such things, then I'm going to express my opinion. If you feel offended in any way, deal with it. After all, you took the whole discussion to a personal level.
And let's not forget that when you said <<Bulgarian - like a Kiwi to an Australian's ears. >>, I didn't go bananas on you.