Arrogance and Learning English!!!

Uriel   Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:04 am GMT
Hey, Candy! I lived there for three years, between the ages of 15 and 18, on an army base. I didn't learn much because A) I was a teenager, and stupid, B) I had already started taking Spanish in the States before I moved, so I just continued it, and C) the Japanese class was full of the aforementioned half-Japanese/half-American kids who'd been speaking it all their lives and were taking the class mostly to learn how to write it, not speak it -- so there was a little bit of an intimidation factor there -- I didn't want to be one of the few kids actually having to LEARN it!

(For the record, though, lots of other kids in the same boat as me were happy to take it, and got pretty good at speaking it. So it was just my problem, not a general one!)

So I really just learned a few basic pleasantries like konnichiwa, konbanwa, ohayo, chotomate, gominasai, nani, daijobu, domo, etc. We did tend to all pepper our speech with a lot of these words in everyday teenager slang, but as far as learning how to string together a coherent sentence.... I never did. Sort of a missed opportunity, I guess.
eito(jpn)   Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:24 pm GMT
>>It is clear; too many people will oppose such a suggestion, and for anyone who believes its an excellent idea, I will say "I'm sorry" if I ever called you arrogant.<<

I am proud of the Japanese language, but it is nonsense to let everyone try to lern it. I agree with Stan.
Guest   Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:31 pm GMT
eito   Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:06 pm GMT
>>You don't have to be! But English *is* the most useful means of communication round the world. When I was in Krakow, I heard French tourists talking to the Polish shop assistant - in English. Here in Düsseldorf, I often hear tourists from Italy, Portugal, Asia, wherever, talking to the German sales assistants or waiters in English.

<<English cannot be the universal language. >>
Why not? <<

That depends on where you stay. In Africa, you will hear peeple speaking French or Portuguese. But these two languages are not "universal". Same with English. Of course there are also some peeple who speak English there. But it does not mean English is universal.

Lerners of English are everywhere. Lerners of French must be everywhere. Even lerners of Chinese could be almost everywhere even if it is difficult. But none of them would be universal.
eito   Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:08 pm GMT
none of them = none of these languages
eito   Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:27 pm GMT
<<Using English is sometimes an evasive way to comunicate with peeple.>>

Using English everywhere could be regarded as an evasive attitude. It will move non-English-speaking peeple away from you, whether deliberately or not.


<<Let's try not to speak it like a native speaker! >

I supose some peeple are likely to think there is no problem if they speak English like native speakers of it. But personally I cannot agree with that. It would be better to speak languages slowly and clearly. If someone wants to speak a certain language like its native speakers, they can feel free to do so.
eito   Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:46 pm GMT
>>The problem is that when you're a native English speaker, and especially American (which I'm not) a lot of people see everything you do and say as 'arrogant'. Calling me arrogant says far more about you than it does about me.<<

Non-native speakers of English also could be suficiently arrogant, I know. When we criticize some peeple, that often makes others irritated. Such cases are not uncommon. If someone says a troll is usually a man, I will be embarrassed, thinking that I am a man but not a troll.
Travis   Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:29 pm GMT
>>>>The problem is that when you're a native English speaker, and especially American (which I'm not) a lot of people see everything you do and say as 'arrogant'. Calling me arrogant says far more about you than it does about me.<<

Non-native speakers of English also could be suficiently arrogant, I know. When we criticize some peeple, that often makes others irritated. Such cases are not uncommon. If someone says a troll is usually a man, I will be embarrassed, thinking that I am a man but not a troll.<<

Yes, but often seems at times as if such things are really just people being criticized for having English as their native language more than anything else, as if natively English-speaking monolinguals are somehow more "arrogant" or like than individuals who happen to be monolingual in some language other than English.
eito   Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:28 am GMT
In many contrys, students have to study English (as a subject). And, native speakers of English might tend to think peeple have lerned English or they are lerning it. And everybody has been told that English is "universal". Therefore, not in every case, but some English speakers stick to English, beleeving everybody understands English when it is slowly uttered. This seems to us an arrogance. But I am sure that non-native speakers of English would be likely to do the same.

These would not hold true for other languages, I supose. This is my understanding. Please don't take it personally. This is not a personal matter.
Mxsmanic   Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:57 am GMT
It amazes me that anyone would be arrogant solely on the basis of language. Language is just a tool for communication.

It is sometimes amusing to see students of English (or any language, for that matter) who feel that they are better than others because they've studied obscure grammar points for ten years at school, even though they still cannot actually communicate effectively in English. Some French students of English are prone to this: they study English grammar at length during their school years, but never master the language in any practical way, so they try to hide their ineptitude in English by constantly going over the handful of grammar points that they've managed to retain.
Steve K   Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:11 am GMT
"It amazes me that anyone would be arrogant solely on the basis of language."

Oh, and who was telling us some time ago that the French don't speak their own language correctly?
Candy   Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:33 am GMT
<<In Africa, you will hear peeple speaking French or Portuguese. But these two languages are not "universal". >>

And how often do you hear people communicating in French or Portuguese in a country where neither is the official language and neither person is a native speaker?
You're missing my point. I'm not saying that lots of people don't speak French and Portuguese. I'm saying that far more people speak English.

<<It will move non-English-speaking peeple away from you, whether deliberately or not. >>

Why?? I still have no idea what you mean.

<<And everybody has been told that English is "universal".>>
Everybody?? Sure about that?
greg   Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:50 am GMT
Candy : je pense que ce qu'eito voulait dire c'est que l'anglais monolingue ou l'anglais de substitution — càd : langue interlangue — est une illusion d'optique. Des milliards d'humains n'ont aucune compétence linguistique en anglais, ce qui limite singulièrement la portée « universelle » de cette langue. Le prisme a travers lequel nous envisageons le statut international de l'anglais est réel, mais très limité. Cela vaut bien sûr pour toutes les langues. La traduction a un bel avenir devant elle !
Candy   Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:13 am GMT
Whatever. I really can't be bothered to argue about this. I've never tried to say that 'everybody' speaks English, or that people should stop using their native language!! That's absurd.
<<Des milliards d'humains n'ont aucune compétence linguistique en anglais, >>
But billions do. It's often a question of age, isn't it? My students in Poland (age 9 to 18) were learning English, but their parents didn't know a word, in 99% of cases. Same in Germany: here my students are 25 to 50, and *their* parents often didn't learn English.

One question: in how many countries around the world is English *not* taught in schools?
This is a genuine question - I really don't know the answer, and I'd be interested to know. Any facts, opinions?
greg   Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:36 am GMT
Candy : autres questions. Connais-tu le pourcentage d'humains ne sachant ni lire ni écrire dans leur propre langue ? Connais-tu le pourcentage d'humains n'ayant jamais mis les pieds à l'école ? Connais-tu l'impact de l'analphabétisme et de l'illétrisme ? Eh bien, quand tu auras trouvé ces pourcentages, dis-toi bien que ce sont autant de personnes qui n'ont aucun connaissance de l'anglais. Ce ne sont pas les seules bien sûr !