I hope greg hasn't given up on this forum, because I haven't seen him around lately and this question is mostly for him. I was reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_phonology and I was wondering about the etymology of the vowels /E:/ and /A:/. Do they have a different origin than /E/ and /a/, or are they the result of phonemic splits? Are there any spellings that indicate whether the word has a long or short vowel? I generally differentiate /a/ and /A:/, like most Canadian francophones, but I don't for /E/ and /E:/. It also mentions that /E:/ is differentiated from /E/ in Quebec by quality as well as length, transcribing it as [3:]. I don't recall ever hearing this in Quebec and it seems unlikely to me; do you know if this is the realization of /E:/, and if not what the realization is? Thanks.
Long vowels in French
Hi,
Could you give us some words that illustrate the different vowels you're taking about ?
I am French and honestly I didn't even know there were long vowels and short vowels in French. Probably because I don't really pay attention to French phonology since it is my mother tongue. But even when trying to find what you're talking about, I can't find it. I don't notice anything particular about the length of the vowels. But maybe I just need someone pointing that out.
Jérémy.
Could you give us some words that illustrate the different vowels you're taking about ?
I am French and honestly I didn't even know there were long vowels and short vowels in French. Probably because I don't really pay attention to French phonology since it is my mother tongue. But even when trying to find what you're talking about, I can't find it. I don't notice anything particular about the length of the vowels. But maybe I just need someone pointing that out.
Jérémy.
Bonjour Josh. Pour répondre à ta question, il faudrait que tu choisisses des exemples. En attendant, dans beaucoup de régions françaises, le [A] & le [A:] n'existent pas : les deux se résument à /a/ =[a]. Quant à l'opposition [E] vs [E:], elle peut exister ici et être totalement inconnue ailleurs. Le cadre hexagonal est trop large pour construire des règles si générales.
Bonsoir Greg!
C'est possible d'avoir quelques exemples ?
Pour le "a", ça je connaissais la différence théorique mais moi je n'en fait aucune.
Par contre, pour le "e" je vois pas ...
C'est possible d'avoir quelques exemples ?
Pour le "a", ça je connaissais la différence théorique mais moi je n'en fait aucune.
Par contre, pour le "e" je vois pas ...
There is allophonic vowel length present in French (not all too different from such in North American English), but phonemic vowel length in French dialects is apparently due to compensatory lengthening due to elision, especially in the case of /s/. As a result, it is probably likely to occur in cases where elision is marked, such as in the word "maître", which has /E:/, and the word "pâte", which has /A:/. Mind you, of course, that vowel length in French is highly dialect-specific, and many dialects have merged /E/ with /E:/ and or /a/ and /A:/.
mettre /mEtR/
maître /mE:tR/
patte /pat/
pâte /pA:t/
Jérémy, these distinctions generally don't occur in Metropolitan French, but are mostly preserved in Quebec French. I'm surprised that I don't have some of these distinctions, since almost all of my French teachers through the years have been Quebec French speakers. I forgot to mention that the Wikipedia article says that Quebec French makes a distinction between /E/ lengthened by following /v/, as in 'grève' and phonemically long /E:/ as in 'rêve'.
maître /mE:tR/
patte /pat/
pâte /pA:t/
Jérémy, these distinctions generally don't occur in Metropolitan French, but are mostly preserved in Quebec French. I'm surprised that I don't have some of these distinctions, since almost all of my French teachers through the years have been Quebec French speakers. I forgot to mention that the Wikipedia article says that Quebec French makes a distinction between /E/ lengthened by following /v/, as in 'grève' and phonemically long /E:/ as in 'rêve'.
To the moderators:
I would appreciate it if you would delete the above messages so that we can continue this discussion.
I would appreciate it if you would delete the above messages so that we can continue this discussion.
Jérémy : « Par contre, pour le "e" je vois pas ... ».
Travis : « There is allophonic vowel length present in French (not all too different from such in North American English), but phonemic vowel length in French dialects is apparently due to compensatory lengthening due to elision, especially in the case of /s/. As a result, it is probably likely to occur in cases where elision is marked, such as in the word "maître", which has /E:/, and the word "pâte", which has /A:/. Mind you, of course, that vowel length in French is highly dialect-specific, and many dialects have merged /E/ with /E:/ and or /a/ and /A:/. »
Ganz genau ! Tout à fait !
Jérémy : si tu regardes un vieux film en noir et blanc des années 40 ou 50, et que les protagonistes ont un accent du Nord (relevé ou populaire), tu percevras la différence entre <maître> {Beherrscherr, Meister, Herr} & <mètre> {Meter, Metrum, Metermaß} & <mettre> {anlegen, anziehen, aufstellen, hängen, legen, setzen, stellen, tun (etc)}. La voyelle initiale du premier mot te paraîtra nettement (et artificiellement) plus allongée que celle du dernier. Dans certains cas, elle pourra même te sembler diphtonguée : <maître> (années 40) → /mE:tR/ ou /mE:i_^tR/, soit en API : <maître> (années 40) → /mɛːtʁ/ ou /mɛːi̯tʁ/.
Mais dans nos phonologies perso, <maître> = <mètre> = <mettre> : les trois sont homophones → /mEtR/ = /mɛtʁ/.
Mais rien n'interdit un allongement exceptionnel ou circonstanciel, même pour ceux pour qui /E:/ = /ɛː/ est un phonème inexistant. En ce cas, on peut écrire : /E/ = /ɛ/ → [E] = [ɛ] (ultramajoritaire) + [E:] = [ɛː] (ultraminoritaire).
Je pense au cas de <ouais>, <mouais> et <vouais>. Mais aussi à <mettre>, <mètre> & <maître> (prononciation colérique par exemple).
Travis : « There is allophonic vowel length present in French (not all too different from such in North American English), but phonemic vowel length in French dialects is apparently due to compensatory lengthening due to elision, especially in the case of /s/. As a result, it is probably likely to occur in cases where elision is marked, such as in the word "maître", which has /E:/, and the word "pâte", which has /A:/. Mind you, of course, that vowel length in French is highly dialect-specific, and many dialects have merged /E/ with /E:/ and or /a/ and /A:/. »
Ganz genau ! Tout à fait !
Jérémy : si tu regardes un vieux film en noir et blanc des années 40 ou 50, et que les protagonistes ont un accent du Nord (relevé ou populaire), tu percevras la différence entre <maître> {Beherrscherr, Meister, Herr} & <mètre> {Meter, Metrum, Metermaß} & <mettre> {anlegen, anziehen, aufstellen, hängen, legen, setzen, stellen, tun (etc)}. La voyelle initiale du premier mot te paraîtra nettement (et artificiellement) plus allongée que celle du dernier. Dans certains cas, elle pourra même te sembler diphtonguée : <maître> (années 40) → /mE:tR/ ou /mE:i_^tR/, soit en API : <maître> (années 40) → /mɛːtʁ/ ou /mɛːi̯tʁ/.
Mais dans nos phonologies perso, <maître> = <mètre> = <mettre> : les trois sont homophones → /mEtR/ = /mɛtʁ/.
Mais rien n'interdit un allongement exceptionnel ou circonstanciel, même pour ceux pour qui /E:/ = /ɛː/ est un phonème inexistant. En ce cas, on peut écrire : /E/ = /ɛ/ → [E] = [ɛ] (ultramajoritaire) + [E:] = [ɛː] (ultraminoritaire).
Je pense au cas de <ouais>, <mouais> et <vouais>. Mais aussi à <mettre>, <mètre> & <maître> (prononciation colérique par exemple).
Merci pour les explications ! ^_^
Je ne fais effectivement absolument aucune distinction. J'écouterai attentivement un vieux film comme tu me le dis, ce serait amusant ;)
C'est vrai que le Quebecois présente pas mal de variations de longueur, voire de grosses diphtongues, mais j'ai jusque là pensé que ça venait de la proximité avec les Etats-Unis.
Il n'y a pas moyen de bannir de manière efficace les pollueurs qui nous innondent à coup de "fuck" ? J'ai déjà vu un site (infos-du-net.com) qui a la capacité de bannir efficacement, même si l'IP change ...
Je ne fais effectivement absolument aucune distinction. J'écouterai attentivement un vieux film comme tu me le dis, ce serait amusant ;)
C'est vrai que le Quebecois présente pas mal de variations de longueur, voire de grosses diphtongues, mais j'ai jusque là pensé que ça venait de la proximité avec les Etats-Unis.
Il n'y a pas moyen de bannir de manière efficace les pollueurs qui nous innondent à coup de "fuck" ? J'ai déjà vu un site (infos-du-net.com) qui a la capacité de bannir efficacement, même si l'IP change ...
<<C'est vrai que le Quebecois présente pas mal de variations de longueur, voire de grosses diphtongues, mais j'ai jusque là pensé que ça venait de la proximité avec les Etats-Unis.>>
I took a book out from the library a few months ago about Quebec French that claimed to refute the idea that it was influenced by English, but I couldn't find it there today. Anyway, the book traced certain features of Quebec French (laxing, affrication, diphthongisation, etc.) to the French dialects brought here by settlers.
It's true that Quebec French has a lot of diphthongs (though more in colloquial speech), and I think that is one of the faults of the French as a second language teaching here: we learn an idealized, pseudo-Metropolitan version of Quebec French, rather that what people actually speak here. For example, the distinction between 'patte' and 'pâte' is not generally taught here, though most Quebeckers natively make a strong distinction between them.
I took a book out from the library a few months ago about Quebec French that claimed to refute the idea that it was influenced by English, but I couldn't find it there today. Anyway, the book traced certain features of Quebec French (laxing, affrication, diphthongisation, etc.) to the French dialects brought here by settlers.
It's true that Quebec French has a lot of diphthongs (though more in colloquial speech), and I think that is one of the faults of the French as a second language teaching here: we learn an idealized, pseudo-Metropolitan version of Quebec French, rather that what people actually speak here. For example, the distinction between 'patte' and 'pâte' is not generally taught here, though most Quebeckers natively make a strong distinction between them.