Can British people pretend to speak like Americans?

Pub Lunch   Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:33 pm GMT
Ahhh Vanessa, Uriel - I thought that the Americans call a subway an "underpass"???? We also call them underpasses but they are always signed "subway". I know many Americans that have gone into one of these to catch a train and ended up being rather confused. Maybe you don't have, as Uriel suggested, pedestrian walkways that go underground.

The differences between our languages is decreasing, which I find a crying shame as I personally have always enjoyed the mix-ups and confusion that our different dialects can throw up. I mean, I realise that at any point in history we would have always been able to communicate but how we managed to retain the same words but develop different meanings was always pretty interesting and I think also served to underline our differences as cultures.

When I was a kid in the 80's we had only a handful of American programmes on the telly (4 channels!!) and as a youngster I'd find much of what I heard confusing. I remember a scene in "Pretty Women" when Julia Roberts talks about meeting only 'bums' for partners. This made me scratch my head because I could not work out how anyone could meet a bum let alone have one as a partner!!! But this mix up just made listening to Americans all the more fun (for me anyway) and made me want to listen to them talk even more, It almost felt like I was learning a new language.

I really like the American way of talking, it probably has a freedom of expression that is (was?) lacking in British English, plus you lot have some cracking words!!! But the fun (I) got out of listening to Americans talk has definitely waned - we sound so much like you lot (especially the youngsters) that Americans no longer sound unique or even very much different.

Actually I feel sorry for the yanks because by everyone picking up American useage it would seem that the poor Americans are losing a part of what makes their identity unique - or rather having it robbed. It is true of course, that by us picking up American terms and using many in place of our own we are also now losing a part of what makes us British.

Oh dear, I have gone of at a bit of a tangent again. So sorry.
Travis   Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:34 pm GMT
I really would not say that North American English and English English really have gotten closer overall, but rather just that speakers of NAE and EE are generally more familiar with the other than in the past. While there have been borrowings from one to the other (by far borrowings from NAE to EE), these really are quite superficial in nature, all things considered.
Damian in Edinburgh   Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:46 pm GMT
It's interesting to see that "gotten" is still widely used in American English. Not many British people use it all any more, unless of course they do so intentionally for whatever reason. It was used in the UK (in England mainly) way back in the 17th century and before I think, and the oft quoted Puritans took it with them on their journey to the New World and I guess it remained in use over there. Here's what our own David Crystal has to say about the use of this form of the past participle "got":

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/gotten.html

One of the most interesting books I have is David Crystal's "The Cambridge Encyclopedia of The English Language" - contains the whole history of the Language from its gradual conception right down to the present day, with full information of all the variations of English across the world and within the British Isles themselves. eg Scots, Australian, American, South African, etc. etc., and all the rest of the worldwide "Englishes" - I don't think that this is really acceptable as a plural form, but no matter.

Apart from the well written, clear and concise text over 489 pages, the book is packed full with maps, charts, graphs and every other means of illustrating the development of our Language in every country where it is the main means of communication.

I never before knew that the word "english" (no capital) is used in the USA and Canada as a term in billiards. You learn something every day!
Pub Lunch   Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:21 pm GMT
I see your point Travis. I suppose when I say that we sound much closer now I would say more in terms of Diction. However I have noticed (this is how sad I am) an almost over-night tendency here in the South East of England to use a rising intonation at the end of virtually every sentence, very much in the way many Americans do.

Traditionally, around here this rising intonation would be used only when asking a question, but now it is very common to hear it used to emphasise general speech.

Again, the way American's raised their intonation was something I picked up on from an early age and was something that I liked; it gave an almost sing song quality to their speech (much like the Welsh). Hearing it from my fellow Essex folk just doesn't sit well with my ears (but I know I'm the only sad git noticing it so who gives a stuff anyway).

I am not sure whether this new change to the speech here is influenced by American speech or whether it is just a natural change (although I'd say that this change is really only evident in people about my age or younger (my kid sister for example who is 12 is a perfect example) so I'd probably say the former would be the most likely reason).

The thing is Travis, I'm sure as far as accents go that our accents on either side of the Atlantic have never been further apart but oddly our pronunciations are closer than ever. This leaves me confused because an accent is pronunciation isn't it??

Anyway, I have no formal training in language's or linguistics so I am sure I make no sense, nevertheless I do find speech pretty bloody fascinating and is something I certainly hope to educate myself in (in an academic sense) one day.

Damien - I hear "Gotten" very rarely but I do hear it. I hear it in this sentence “I’ve gotten used to it" as in ...erm...."I hate my job but I've gotten used to it". Seriously mate that is the only time I will hear the word "gotten".

Alright, how about this one - “I guess so". I have always had that down as an American alternative to "I suppose" that has caught on here - but apparently I am wrong and in-fact "I guess" to mean "I suppose" has always been used here. I'm not so sure, maybe centuries ago but judging by my grandparents speech (and other oldies) I never hear "I guess" come up - ever. Oh, that book sounds a well interesting read my friend.
Travis   Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:00 pm GMT
One note is that there almost certainly is more influence from North American English upon English English today than there is the other way. The *most* in the way of influence of EE upon NAE that I have seen is that NAE-speakers these days are generally more aware of EE usages and words (such as "lorry") than NAE-speakers in the past; aside from that I know of little to no present-day EE influence upon NAE. If anything, EE influence on NAE probably has diminished since WW2 with the near-complete disappearance of Mid-Atlantic speech, but Mid-Atlantic never was spoken by the general populace to begin with (being effectively an attempt at an American RP). Consequently, my view here is most definitely influenced by this being from an NAE perspective.

Another thing that should be noted, though, is that the particular change with respect to intonation that you have been referring to is something that has been spreading throughout the entire English-speaking world, and which is in no fashion particularly an NAE thing (it has also appeared in Australian English as well). It is by no means universal within NAE at all, for starters, and is an apparently recent innovation within NAE dialects as well. At least here in southeastern Wisconsin, for instance, it only shows up on occasion, and is generally the exception rather than the rule. Consequently, I cannot necessarily chalk this particular example as specifically being general NAE influence on EE. Furthermore, this is just one particular change in intonation, and does not necessarily constitute systematic NAE influence upon EE (which I doubt really exists; simple borrowing of words and particular isolated phonological features does not really count as such).

One other comment of mine is that an impression of being closer probably could be influenced by internal consolidation within EE, through the marginalization of traditional dialects and the spread of Estuary English, as southeastern EE dialects are by far the closest* EE dialects to NAE in general. Southeastern EE influence upon the rest of EE would incidentally bring other EE dialects closer to NAE as a result.

* Yes, NAE largely does not share in many innovations in southern EE, but these are largely due to conservatism on the part of NAE; genetically NAE can still primarily be considered to be descended from southeastern EE, albeit at an earlier date than AusE or New Zealand English.
Travis   Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:03 pm GMT
>>Alright, how about this one - “I guess so". I have always had that down as an American alternative to "I suppose" that has caught on here - but apparently I am wrong and in-fact "I guess" to mean "I suppose" has always been used here. I'm not so sure, maybe centuries ago but judging by my grandparents speech (and other oldies) I never hear "I guess" come up - ever. Oh, that book sounds a well interesting read my friend.<<

Conversely, "I suppose" is definitely used around here, and not as a borrowing at that...
Uriel   Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:29 am GMT
<<I thought that the Americans call a subway an "underpass">>

Actually, when we hear "underpass" or "overpass" we usually think of roads that pass over or under each other -- no pedestrians involved!
Uriel   Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:33 am GMT
<<It's interesting to see that "gotten" is still widely used in American English.>>

It's not just widespread, it's pretty much obligatory. To drop it and use "got" instead where we expect to hear "gotten" is extremely rare and comes off as pretentious and odd.
Pub Lunch   Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:10 am GMT
Yes Travis, I have heard many Americans use "I suppose" instead of "I guess" but "I guess" would seem to be the more popular variant - wouldn't it??

I also have heard many Americans not using a rising intonation throughout their speech but I have no idea what areas of America that they would have been from.

Many accents here in Britain do use this rising intonation so maybe, as some of your post suggests, it was perhaps an inevitable change. And there I was blaming the programme 'Friends'.

<<Actually, when we hear "underpass" or "overpass" we usually think of roads that pass over or under each other -- no pedestrians involved! >>

Ok, I have learned something new then, the US does not have any subways!!! (the British variant that is). A good job it is too as these places do tend to be rather dodgy!!
Guest   Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:55 am GMT
<<Ok, I have learned something new then, the US does not have any subways!!! (the British variant that is).>>

They do exist in some towns and cities. And the US term is "pedestrian underpass".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subway_(underpass)
Jasper   Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:33 pm GMT
<<They do exist in some towns and cities. And the US term is "pedestrian underpass". >>

I second this.

They're not popular because they seem to be magnets for vagrants and crime. I only know of one--and this one is owned by a company...
Rene   Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:02 pm GMT
That rising intonation started (I think) with Californian uptalk. I grew up in Southern Californian and never realized that I did the whole uptalk thing until I moved to Northern California and people remarked on it all the time. I dropped it really quickly, although I still think that people in California (whether north or south) do it to some degree. So Pub Lunch, I think that you can blame me and the rest of the valley girls and surfer dudes.
Damian in Edinburgh   Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:27 pm GMT
Well, I don't think that ALL Brits will want to speak with an American accent! :-) A very important section of us who are Scots are happy to even sing in our own accent as this You Tube vid clearly shows. Every time I sing out out O Flower of Scotland at full blast my accent seems to become even stronger than when I talk normally. Do any of you sing in the shower, or in the bath? When I was working down in London I always had this urge to bawl out O Flower of Scotland each and every time I took a shower. Now I am home again I don't feel the same need to do so.

Who cares that the Italians beat us at Hampden! :-)

Play it with your volume at top decibels:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jG1FBcCV45U&feature=related
Damian in Edinburgh   Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:42 pm GMT
Ewan McGregor sings it less frentically. Go Scotland - when will we see your like again...and be a nation again!

Only joking, England! I think.....

Friday week the 30th is St Andrew's Day

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Ni9QkBfVhg&feature=related
Travis   Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:47 pm GMT
>>Well, I don't think that ALL Brits will want to speak with an American accent! :-) A very important section of us who are Scots are happy to even sing in our own accent as this You Tube vid clearly shows. Every time I sing out out O Flower of Scotland at full blast my accent seems to become even stronger than when I talk normally. Do any of you sing in the shower, or in the bath? When I was working down in London I always had this urge to bawl out O Flower of Scotland each and every time I took a shower. Now I am home again I don't feel the same need to do so.<<

That's the thing - I don't myself see why British people would want to speak North American English in the first place...