"R" in English vs. in other languages; the speaker

Joe   Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:56 am GMT
If there's one thing that confuses me, it's how English developed its R sound. I know of no other language that possesses this sound. Also, why are native English speakers so reluctant to pronounce the correct R sound in other languages? This sound doesn't exist in these languages, and yet I still hear native English speakers use this sound in other languages instead of the proper sound (usually an alveolar tap). If your native language is not English, how does it sound when native English speakers use the English R in your native language? And one tip: please, if you're learning English, you must learn to pronounce this sound. I have plenty of native Spanish speaking friends who insist that this sound is impossible for them to pronounce so they don't even try, but that is a bad attitude to have. And yet they always are quick to correct me if my Spanish R is not rolled enough.
Gabriel   Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:42 am GMT
I think the sound exists in a few other languages, although I cannot mention them off the top of my head.

As for the question of how I feel when I hear native speakers of English use [r\] for Spanish "r", I do not encounter this very frequently (at least in serious learners). More often than not, it's something close to the correct [4] that they use, except they use it also instead of [r]. The casual learner, or someone using a Spanish phrase for effect ("¡ay caramba!" :)) is more likely to use [r\] and this does not bother me at all.

I don't find [r\] to be an "impossible" sound. I have some issues with its distribution though, having learnt British English (RP) and being in the US now. I dislike my new accent, but that's a different story.
Skippy   Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:18 am GMT
It happens in English, Mandarin, and Tamil...
K. T.   Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:24 am GMT
Dang, Skippy. You are smart!
K. T.   Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:26 am GMT
I know almost nothing about Tamil except that it is spoken in India, I think.
Franco   Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:56 am GMT
I seen a video of British diplomat in Russia not speaking correct R. Why so lazy? It's not so hard! Most English speakers can do it easily! Yet some people simply refuse!
Gabriel   Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:19 am GMT
<<So you've decided to adopt an American accent?>>

I can't say that my accent is now American. I've modified (or botched) an RP accent in the direction of an American one. In places where non-rhoticity would be too conspicuous, i.e. in "open" positions, I tend to have [r\] or [@`] now. This is similar to what you mentioned about your South African acquaintance in a different thread. The word "border" for instance, is now generally ["bO:d@`] before a pause but ["bO:d@] if followed by a consonant. Other features are even more erratic, like my use of [4] for /t/ (my friend Betty is ["bEti] one day, ["bE4i] the next) or my [{] in the BATH words. This is why I find that proposals for an international accent (like Canepari's) are interesting - I need the consistency I once had.

I think being aware of accents and phonology has made things more difficult instead of simpler! (maybe I worry too much).


<<Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to switch? Most Americans love RP accents. >>

My first conscious motivation was an "incident" I had with one of my co-workers. She happens to be Hispanic and had assumed I was "British". When she learned that I was, in fact, South American, she became distant and eventually asked me if I was putting on airs with my fake accent!

Other minor things have made me want to switch (my last name has an R, I've had to spell it over the phone time and time again till I say "ahrrrrr" as in "rrrogerrrrrr").
OïL   Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:05 am GMT
"If there's one thing that confuses me, it's how English developed its R sound"

Joe,

Because English developed to its maximum a potentiality that all Germanic languages have: a final R in a closed syllabe is reduced to a slight constriction, whitout any noticeable flap, that more or less modifies the preceeding vowel (to a considerable extent in English).

At some point this subdued R contaminated all others R, whatever their position!
Just pronounce (for instance) <care>-<careless>-<caring>-<whoring>-<ring> and you'll understand what I mean.

This evolution took place around 1700. At the same time some continental Germanic languages (as well as French) began to drop the old rolled R, for parallel reasons, but choose the uvular R (the French R) instead, because those languages retained the front rounded vowels (y, Ø) that were lost in English with the big vowel shift.

Try to prononce Ger. <Möhre> or Fr. <murer> with an English R, it's almost impossible, there's a near absolute phonologic incompatibility!
All components of a language are one system.

So, why that peculiar English R? Because it couldn't be otherwise.
Skippy   Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:44 pm GMT
I'm not smart, I'm just going by what wikipedia tells me.

I thought German's current "r" came in to mainstream use in German later on, like late 1800s or early 1900s.
OïL   Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:21 pm GMT
Skippy,

This is right. I've read conflicting theories about that (from Denmark over Hamburg? from France through Rhineland? both? none of them, internal endemic evolution in NW Germany?) but at any rate it started in Germany after France and Denmark, and became widespread only with the tremendous urban development of the late 19th century.
Travis   Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:35 pm GMT
My dialect of English has uvular approximants in codas for /r/, some people here such as myself also have uvular approximants in onsets (except after coronals, where just about everyone here has a postalveolar approximant, which may be coarticulated with a uvular approximant) and when syllabic, even though others may have more typical NAE-like rhotics in onsets and when syllabic overall.
OïL   Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:08 pm GMT
That's interesting.
You mean, you use two different r-sound for <read> and <thread>? *
Is it a regional pronunciation? (due to strong German input?)

*(or <Travis> and <raven>?)
Travis   Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:15 pm GMT
>>That's interesting.
You mean, you use two different r-sound for <read> and <thread>? *<<

Yes - "read" for me is [Ri:d] or [Ri:t] while "thread" is [Tr\E:d] or [Tr\E:t].

>>Is it a regional pronunciation? (due to strong German input?)<<

It is very, very regional in nature, and I strongly suspect that it is due to German influence here. Aside from some dialects in the UK that I have heard of historically having uvular rhotics, I really do not know of uvular rhotics being mentioned in literature as existing in *any* English dialects.

>>*(or <Travis> and <raven>?)<<

Same here - "Travis" for me is ["tSr\E{:v1s] while "raven" is ["Re:v1~:n].

Note that many here likely do not have such variation, or do not have it consistently, as the use of uvular approximants is less common here in onsets than in codas. It would not be unlikely if I were actually in the minority in *strongly* preferring uvular approximants over postalveolar approximants in onsets except when after coronals, as some may only have postalveolar approximants in onsets here, while others may have general free variation between the uvular approximants and postalveolar approximants in onsets here outside of always having the latter after coronals.
Gabriel   Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 am GMT
<<It is very, very regional in nature, and I strongly suspect that it is due to German influence here. Aside from some dialects in the UK that I have heard of historically having uvular rhotics, I really do not know of uvular rhotics being mentioned in literature as existing in *any* English dialects>>

The last time I remember noticing an uvular rhotic in a native speaker was in the movie Billy Elliot (which, I believe, is set in Durham). The boy's father uses it several times in the film (particularly noticeable when he's at Billy's audition among RP speakers: "I'm not an expe[R]t")
Darren   Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:20 pm GMT
<<The last time I remember noticing an uvular rhotic in a native speaker was in the movie Billy Elliot (which, I believe, is set in Durham). The boy's father uses it several times in the film (particularly noticeable when he's at Billy's audition among RP speakers: "I'm not an expe[R]t")>>

This is actually because of the fact that the boy's father is Scottish and so the pronounciation of the 'r' in 'expert' is quite different to that of standard english