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Exactly. Who determines "correctness", and what makes their idea of it "correct"? Telling me to "open a goddamn book" does not answer the question; it sidesteps it. Well, I'm not going to answer until you answer that question.
- Kef
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Anon,
I think another way to look at it is like so:
There are many dialects of English, and they each have their own internal systems of rules. Yet, when they speak they sound perfectly naturally, even if what they speak doesn't match the standard language.
I think you and Guest misunderstand what we are talking about and we are getting confused over semantics. You see, there are two meanings, at least, of "correct grammar." Here they are:
1) The proper, formal way of speaking/writing that carries with it prestige and a sense of having education.
2) What would sound natural to native speakers.
To continue hitting us with definition 1, while we are discussing something related to definition 2, is simply a wasted effort and doesn't help us learn anything. I think way too many people confuse the 2 definitions and it results in confusion on both sides.
This, btw, is what is meant by equivocation. Where you take advantage of a word that has more than one meaning, by using a certain definition for a word at one point and "sneaking in" another definition at another point. Observe:
Margarine is better than nothing
Nothing is better than butter
Therefore margarine is better than butter
The above is a practice of the fallacy of equivocation. Here is another example:
A Jackass is a male member of the species Equus asinus
All Jackasses have long ears
Karl is a jackass
Therefore, Karl has long ears
Please realize that, at least for me, I am discussing definition 2. Attempting to rebut my arguments with use of definition 1 will get you nowhere ultimately, except perhaps to a flame war (though I am not a flame warrior).
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<where does 'correct English' come from? The answer can only be that it comes from the native usage of prestige speakers (unless you claim some sort of divine intervention that gave us correct English).>
Not true. If you get things wrong in my, non-prestige, dialect, you'll be told that you've got it wrong, that your usage is incorrect.
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<<Not true. If you get things wrong in my, non-prestige, dialect, you'll be told that you've got it wrong, that your usage is incorrect.>>
That's using a different definition of correct than Anon was; beneficii's #2 in the post above yours.
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<1) The proper, formal way of speaking/writing that carries with it prestige and *a sense of having education*.>
a sense of having been educated up to sixteen years old
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