Japanese is similar to Chinese as English and Turkish, if you speak English you can learn Turkish in a few days, they both have the same alphabet :-)
Which language is difficult to learn?
True, but 90% of Japanese Kanji are just identical to Chinese traditional Hanzi.
-I know, but that doesn't mean anything. They are read and used differently, i.e. with hiragana. Refer to Guest's sarcastic comment.
-I know, but that doesn't mean anything. They are read and used differently, i.e. with hiragana. Refer to Guest's sarcastic comment.
Knowing Hanzi gives the learner an advantage in reading (and ultimately in progressing) in Japanese. This is no secret. Many Chinese people taking the JLPT know this very well.
I've never known a European or American who passed level one of the JLPT (the most advanced/difficult level) after one year of study and no knowledge of other languages. Perhaps such a person exists, but I have not heard of this happening (although I knew one gifted Swiss polyglot who could have done this.) It does seem to happen with Chinese people.
To pass one has to know about 10,000 words and 2,000 Kanji. I suppose one could cram in 5 or 6 Kanji a day, but then there is the listening portion. Actually this is the tough spot for Chinese, but they don't have to struggle with learning the characters and the reading portion is weighted heavily.
Knowing Japanese has helped me with Mandarin a little bit. Sometimes I recognize the beginning consonant or I can pick out the spoken word if I am given the translation in English or Japanese first.
They don't belong to the same family of languages, though.
I've never known a European or American who passed level one of the JLPT (the most advanced/difficult level) after one year of study and no knowledge of other languages. Perhaps such a person exists, but I have not heard of this happening (although I knew one gifted Swiss polyglot who could have done this.) It does seem to happen with Chinese people.
To pass one has to know about 10,000 words and 2,000 Kanji. I suppose one could cram in 5 or 6 Kanji a day, but then there is the listening portion. Actually this is the tough spot for Chinese, but they don't have to struggle with learning the characters and the reading portion is weighted heavily.
Knowing Japanese has helped me with Mandarin a little bit. Sometimes I recognize the beginning consonant or I can pick out the spoken word if I am given the translation in English or Japanese first.
They don't belong to the same family of languages, though.
Knowledge of written Chinese helps with learning to read Japanese.
Knowledge of written Japanese helps a little in figuring out some meanings in written Chinese.
Knowledge of on-yomi may help speakers of Japanese to make some connections with remembering words in Mandarin.
Knowledge of written Japanese helps a little in figuring out some meanings in written Chinese.
Knowledge of on-yomi may help speakers of Japanese to make some connections with remembering words in Mandarin.
<< The most difficult language to learn is Chinese but if you already speak Japanese it may not be that difficult. >>
Japanese is probably as big a pain to learn as Chinese. If not, it's pretty close. They do have an easier time learning each other's language because the biggest barrier -- the hanzi/kanji -- is not much of a barrier to them. Yes, the kanji are used differently in the two languages, but the hardest part is remembering the shapes, and they've already got most of that down. Another tricky (but not nearly so much) feature of these languages, the use of counter words, will also be familiar to both of them.
By the way, I've always had the impression that if you intend to learn both Chinese and Japanese, then it would be more efficient to learn Chinese first, at least if you're going to learn the traditional forms of characters. I wonder if my impression is correct. If so, it'd be kind of a shame, then, that I must learn Japanese first, since it's the one I really want to learn and I feel that I've already put off learning it for too long. I wouldn't be able to stand waiting a few more years to get Chinese under my belt!
- Kef
Japanese is probably as big a pain to learn as Chinese. If not, it's pretty close. They do have an easier time learning each other's language because the biggest barrier -- the hanzi/kanji -- is not much of a barrier to them. Yes, the kanji are used differently in the two languages, but the hardest part is remembering the shapes, and they've already got most of that down. Another tricky (but not nearly so much) feature of these languages, the use of counter words, will also be familiar to both of them.
By the way, I've always had the impression that if you intend to learn both Chinese and Japanese, then it would be more efficient to learn Chinese first, at least if you're going to learn the traditional forms of characters. I wonder if my impression is correct. If so, it'd be kind of a shame, then, that I must learn Japanese first, since it's the one I really want to learn and I feel that I've already put off learning it for too long. I wouldn't be able to stand waiting a few more years to get Chinese under my belt!
- Kef
Ironically, from a pure linguistic point of view, I don't find Japanese to be in any way easier than European languages you guys are speaking natively. My mere advantage of recognizing 99% characters immediately doesn't help me at all. If only Japanese were sinitic! :D
Really, don't worry too much about Hanzi or Kanji. As long as you are motivated, you know what to do.
Really, don't worry too much about Hanzi or Kanji. As long as you are motivated, you know what to do.
<< Ironically, from a pure linguistic point of view, I don't find Japanese to be in any way easier than European languages you guys are speaking natively. >>
Perhaps not, but I bet you that if Chinese didn't use hanzi and Japanese did, you'd find Japanese a lot harder than those European languages. :)
- Kef
Perhaps not, but I bet you that if Chinese didn't use hanzi and Japanese did, you'd find Japanese a lot harder than those European languages. :)
- Kef
"I don't find Japanese to be in any way easier than European languages you guys are speaking natively."_Xie
Perhaps you don't recognize your hometown advantage with Hanzi. If you go to Japan, you'll KNOW if it's a museum or a police station. You already know which restroom to enter. You can discern that a little mark changes the entire Hanzi and that helps when someone writes the Kanji down for you and you are looking for the shop. These are some of the "givens" for you.
As far as sound, yes, Chinese and Japanese do NOT sound alike-the flow of the language is really strikingly different. As far as grammar, they are quite different. BUT... I was looking at some Chinese recently and thought, "Wow! This is logical and easy." (but now I have the hometown advantage of knowing how to read characters...)
I don't think I'm naive...
Perhaps you don't recognize your hometown advantage with Hanzi. If you go to Japan, you'll KNOW if it's a museum or a police station. You already know which restroom to enter. You can discern that a little mark changes the entire Hanzi and that helps when someone writes the Kanji down for you and you are looking for the shop. These are some of the "givens" for you.
As far as sound, yes, Chinese and Japanese do NOT sound alike-the flow of the language is really strikingly different. As far as grammar, they are quite different. BUT... I was looking at some Chinese recently and thought, "Wow! This is logical and easy." (but now I have the hometown advantage of knowing how to read characters...)
I don't think I'm naive...
Wait, you wrote "natively", did you mean from our viewpoints of natives of English?
My mere advantage of recognizing 99% characters immediately doesn't help me at all. If only Japanese were sinitic!-Xie
Hmmm.
I think I misread your post. I'm sorry.
Hmmm.
I think I misread your post. I'm sorry.
Does anyone have experience on the difficulty of a Russian native
learning the English language?
PWDils@aol.com
learning the English language?
PWDils@aol.com
Kef
Having studied both Chinese and Japanese, my two cents worth:
If your interested in learning to read, then it's probably easier to learn Chinese first. The majority of characters have only one pronunciation. Learning Japanese first would require learning both the ON readings (Chinese-derived) and KUN readings (native Japanese)--and usually multiple pronunciations for both. (Not to mention both kana syllabaries.) If you learn the Chinese characters first, you will have the meanings of most kanji, and at least a clue for the ON readings.
Of course, Chinese doesn't have an "official" list, like the 1945 Jōyō kanji for Japanese, but you can get something similar from frequency lists (first 2000 characters~97% understanding, 3000 characters~99.2%):
http://www.zein.se/patrick/3000char.html
I found that the spoken forms of Japanese and Chinese were not as difficult as advertised. The grammar of Chinese was so straightforward, that it made up for the tones. (Which were not so intimidating.) Japanese grammar is a little more work, but the pronunciation made relatively easy to grasp.
Which brings me to my last point: I think that pronunciation is a major difficulty in setting out to learn a language, at least if you want to speak, understand--or even read accurately. Swedish grammar is much simpler, to me, than German, but the pronunciation (and orthography) made it harder to "get into" than German. Trying to get my tongue (and ear) around Russian was worse than the grammar. For that reason, I find it easier to get started (and thus keep going) with languages with a straightforward pronunciation and orthography, like Spanish or Italian (vs. French and Portuguese), German (vs. Scandinavian and Dutch), Swahili, Indonesian, etc.
Having studied both Chinese and Japanese, my two cents worth:
If your interested in learning to read, then it's probably easier to learn Chinese first. The majority of characters have only one pronunciation. Learning Japanese first would require learning both the ON readings (Chinese-derived) and KUN readings (native Japanese)--and usually multiple pronunciations for both. (Not to mention both kana syllabaries.) If you learn the Chinese characters first, you will have the meanings of most kanji, and at least a clue for the ON readings.
Of course, Chinese doesn't have an "official" list, like the 1945 Jōyō kanji for Japanese, but you can get something similar from frequency lists (first 2000 characters~97% understanding, 3000 characters~99.2%):
http://www.zein.se/patrick/3000char.html
I found that the spoken forms of Japanese and Chinese were not as difficult as advertised. The grammar of Chinese was so straightforward, that it made up for the tones. (Which were not so intimidating.) Japanese grammar is a little more work, but the pronunciation made relatively easy to grasp.
Which brings me to my last point: I think that pronunciation is a major difficulty in setting out to learn a language, at least if you want to speak, understand--or even read accurately. Swedish grammar is much simpler, to me, than German, but the pronunciation (and orthography) made it harder to "get into" than German. Trying to get my tongue (and ear) around Russian was worse than the grammar. For that reason, I find it easier to get started (and thus keep going) with languages with a straightforward pronunciation and orthography, like Spanish or Italian (vs. French and Portuguese), German (vs. Scandinavian and Dutch), Swahili, Indonesian, etc.
"Does anyone have experience on the difficulty of a Russian native
learning the English language?"
Have I met Russians who were learning English?
Yes.
Are you interested in knowing what sounds are difficult for them?
learning the English language?"
Have I met Russians who were learning English?
Yes.
Are you interested in knowing what sounds are difficult for them?
Dlja russkih ochen' trudno otlichat' slova tipa "bit - beat - beet", "get, git", "peace, piss" i tak dalee. Dlja russkih oni vse zvuchat odinakovo.