Belgium languages

greg   Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:24 am GMT
Link : « Brussels is an old Flamish city with Flamish name in the middle of Flamish territory. What is the justification to separate it from it`s roots? ».

Les racines de Bruxelles sont bruxelloises : elle a été la capitale du duché de Brabant, situé en Wallonie et en Flandre. Elle a même été intégrée à la Bourgogne. Aujourd'hui, la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale ne fait partie ni de la Flandre ni de la Wallonie, mais de la Belgique dont elle est la capitale. D'autre part 90 % des Bruxellois sont francophones. Ils ont pourtant décidé que la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale devait être officiellement bilingue, non pas pour les 10 % de Bruxellois flamandophones, mais pour les 60 % de Belges flamandophones dont la capitale est Bruxelles.

Enfin, ce sont les Bruxellois eux-mêmes qui ont choisi d'être francophones. Et ça ne date pas d'hier : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Bxl-evolution-linguistique.gif .
Link   Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:00 am GMT
<<<Enfin, ce sont les Bruxellois eux-mêmes qui ont choisi d'être francophones.>>>

This statement sounds familiar, always the same story of " voluntarily " giving up ones mother tonge and adopting the better French language.
But still the arguments are not refutetd, that if you take out a piece of a country you can make any statistics on it. The results then only depends on the choice and dimension of the piece. If you take appropriate districts in Paris or London you will quickly proove that French or English are minority languages there and claim independence of it or at least a special treatment and seperate laws.

Brussels is an old Flamish city with Flamish name in the middle of Flamish territory. What is no justification to separate it from it`s roots.
Guest   Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:37 pm GMT
Why don't you accept that French is the lingua franca in Brussels? All the Flemish population speak French in Brussels while this is not true with Flemish and the French speaking population. The fact that the Flemish community is more prosperous does not change the linguistic situation in Brussels.
JLK   Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:06 pm GMT
"The fact that the Flemish community is more prosperous does not change the linguistic situation in Brussels."

One of the reasons for their prosperity is that the average flemish person speaks english well. If look at the statistic there has been an enormous push in learning english in flanders instead of french. I think english will replace french as the lingua franca of brussels within our lifetimes...
Guest   Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:16 pm GMT
The Flemish will not be richer than the Walloons forever, this is a circumstance that very well could change in the following years.
greg   Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:10 pm GMT
JLK : « I think english will replace french as the lingua franca of brussels within our lifetimes... ».

JLK : « By the way, I'm neither flemish nor belgian nor dutch,etc...I'm english/american so my position is neutral. »

En effet ! Heureusement pour nous (et les Bruxellois), tu ne t'es pas livré à un exercice de loufoquerie extrémiste... En tout cas merci pour la barre de rire ! ☺ Presque aussi hilarant qu'une bonne blague belge, une fois.
JLK   Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:17 pm GMT
Guest: How did you come to that conclusion? Flander has better industry, more businesses,etc...Their productivity per hour is xtremely high. The average flemish person is better educated and speaks more languages than their Walloon compatriots. Walloonia is light years behind and their refusal to embrace capitalism will keep them that way.

Josh: The majority of the people in miami speak spanish, therefore it isn't an American city?! Nonsense...As I said earlier, it's very possible that Flanders will succeed in which case Brussels would be included and it would be a flemish majority city again.
JLK   Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:22 pm GMT
Tu me fais rire aussi. Un autre stupide francais...Mon Dieu.
JLK   Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:28 pm GMT
Yeah, you can turn your back on the clock. Arabic was spoken in Israel for 2000 years after the jewish exodus. Now, what language are they speaking again...? The linguistic situation in brussels is much more than recent than that. If the flemish want dutch to become the dominant language of brussels again they have more than enough authority and reason to do so. No point in arguing with me about it, it's very likely that you will see it happen.
greg   Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:33 pm GMT
JLK : « Flander has better industry, more businesses,etc...Their productivity per hour is xtremely high. The average flemish person is better educated and speaks more languages than their Walloon compatriots. Walloonia is light years behind and their refusal to embrace capitalism will keep them that way. »

Une avalanche de clichés tous plus éculés les uns que les autres... Faut arrêter de lire « The Economist » et de gober « Fox News »... À moins que tu ne sois un fana de l'extrême droite flamande ?

Un peu de lecture ne te fera pas de mal :
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2005/06/BAILLY/12521
http://www.lalibre.be/bhv
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2005/06/BAILLY/12522
http://www.lalibre.be/bhv/images/infovilles.gif
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2005/06/BAILLY/12472 .
JLK   Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:56 pm GMT
Greg: I can understand french and I know this is a multilingual forum, but I just think it's pathetic you can't write in english. Instead, you presume that everyone speaks french, a language far less studied and less useful around the world. I can only presume that you are an uneducated and illiterate person. So, I will respond to any more of your posts until you are courteous enough to address me in English. Good Day!

Josh Lalonde: "half of their own population is against them." Please do expand. That statement makes no sense.

I don't see how Israel's surrounding neighbors are irrelevant. The international community supported the creation of the state of israel. The international community did not support Napolean's take over of europe(including brussels). The flemish in brussels had no choice in the matter and it is ignorant of you to think otherwise. French was made the language of administration and commerce. They had to learn french to survive.

"Very neutral. I'm not French by the way, I'm Canadian."

My statement was directed to greg not you.
JLK   Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:09 pm GMT
Edit: So, I will NOT respond to any more of your posts until you are courteous enough to address me in English. Good Day!

By the way Greg, I don't think you could have found a more biased source to make your point. Le Monde? LOL
Milton   Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:56 pm GMT
I think Belgium should split: independent Flanders, independent Wallonia (or a province of France, if France wants it) and Brussels-District of European Union.
JLK   Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:39 pm GMT
Josh: I take it your greg's representative now. Please, let him speak for himself. The majority of the members of this forum speak english and only a minority speak french. To write every post in french indicates a level of cultural arrogance that is difficult to comprehend.

"Half of the population of the State of Israel is Palestinian, and the vast majority of Palestinians do not support the State of Israel."

No, less than 20% of the population of Israel is Palestinian.

"If you look at the chart that greg posted, you'll see that Flemish or Dutch was the language of most residents of Brussels in the 1840s. So it's pretty obvious that they didn't have to learn French to survive under Napoleon's government. And Belgium was part of the Netherlands from 1815 to 1830, so if French was such an imposed burden, surely they would have dropped it during that period."

The 1840s was merely a generation after napoleon. You don't just forget a language over night. French speaking Belgians were made the ruling class of belgium and that was the case until quite recently. Now the flemish are starting to abandon french in favour of english and german. It's not the language of commerce and politics in europe anymore so there isn't that much practical application.
JLK   Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:17 pm GMT
I love how whenever you blunder it's irrelevant...