They DO consider themselves French, though. They don't seem all that French to me, but they certainly think that about themselves.
Alsace
OiL
>>>French nationalism in Alsace, and Alsatian allergy not to anything German, but to Germany as a State, is very old (and very enigmatic). IIIrd Reich was only a bit of icing on the cake. <<<
Here is the true background about the pretended "very old and very enigmatic Alsatian allergy" to it's own German language, culture and fatherland:
>After World War I, the establishment of German identity in Alsace was reversed, as Germans who had settled in Alsace since 1871 were expelled. Policies forbidding the use of German and requiring that of French were introduced. .... France regained control of the wartorn area in 1944 and resumed its policy of promoting the French language with uncompromising vigor. For instance, from 1945 to 1984 the use of German in newspapers was restricted to a maximum of 25%.
In more recent years, as nationalistic emotions have receded, Alsatian is now being promoted by local authorities again as an element of the region's identity. Alsatian is now taught in schools (but not mandatory) as one of the regional languages of France. German is also taught as a foreign language in local kindergartens and schools.<
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace
Let us hope that there is still some future for the beautyful Alsacian, Breton, Catalan and Corsican languages in France as well as of the beautyful Canadian-French language in Canada
>>>French nationalism in Alsace, and Alsatian allergy not to anything German, but to Germany as a State, is very old (and very enigmatic). IIIrd Reich was only a bit of icing on the cake. <<<
Here is the true background about the pretended "very old and very enigmatic Alsatian allergy" to it's own German language, culture and fatherland:
>After World War I, the establishment of German identity in Alsace was reversed, as Germans who had settled in Alsace since 1871 were expelled. Policies forbidding the use of German and requiring that of French were introduced. .... France regained control of the wartorn area in 1944 and resumed its policy of promoting the French language with uncompromising vigor. For instance, from 1945 to 1984 the use of German in newspapers was restricted to a maximum of 25%.
In more recent years, as nationalistic emotions have receded, Alsatian is now being promoted by local authorities again as an element of the region's identity. Alsatian is now taught in schools (but not mandatory) as one of the regional languages of France. German is also taught as a foreign language in local kindergartens and schools.<
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace
Let us hope that there is still some future for the beautyful Alsacian, Breton, Catalan and Corsican languages in France as well as of the beautyful Canadian-French language in Canada
"Let us hope that there is still some future for the beautyful Alsacian, Breton, Catalan and Corsican languages in France as well as of the beautyful Canadian-French language in Canada"
In France you have many more languages: occitan (and its many flavours), provençal, basque and flemmish.
It is a shame that the French Government promotes only the Ille de France's language and not these ones too.
In France you have many more languages: occitan (and its many flavours), provençal, basque and flemmish.
It is a shame that the French Government promotes only the Ille de France's language and not these ones too.
"It is a shame that the French Government promotes only the Ille de France's language and not these ones too..."
— Yep and it's a shame that the German government promotes only Thüringisch MHD und nicht Südbairisch, Mittelbairisch, Nordbairisch, Nordwestbairisch, Schwäbisch, Oberalemannisch, Rheinfränkisch, Moselfränkisch, Schlesisch, Obersächsisch, Mecklenburgisch, Niedersächsisch, Westfälisch, Ost-, Süd- u. Nordfränkisch usw.
— Yep and it's a shame that the German government promotes only Thüringisch MHD und nicht Südbairisch, Mittelbairisch, Nordbairisch, Nordwestbairisch, Schwäbisch, Oberalemannisch, Rheinfränkisch, Moselfränkisch, Schlesisch, Obersächsisch, Mecklenburgisch, Niedersächsisch, Westfälisch, Ost-, Süd- u. Nordfränkisch usw.
Is it true that most of the newcomers in Quebec end up using English more than French?
Whoops!
I just realized that starting from page 2, this thread doesn't really talke about French in Canada.
I guess it'd be better for me to open a new thread...
I just realized that starting from page 2, this thread doesn't really talke about French in Canada.
I guess it'd be better for me to open a new thread...
K. T. : « Ein echter Elsäßer ist einer, der zuhause seine alemannische Mundart spricht, und nichtsdestoweniger sich selbst für einen franz. Super-Patrioten hält. Frage mich nicht warum es so geht. »
Oui mais il existe aussi de *vrais* Alsaciens qui ne parlent guère alémanique. Ce qui n'empêche pas certains d'entre eux d'éprouver de la sympathie pour la reconnaissance des langues parlées dans la région.
K. T. : « The reason is that Alsatians are of German character:
1) they are not very nationalistic but very opportunistic and pragmatic
2) they like French and the French culture (savoir vivre, Leben wie Gott in Frankreich, élégance etc.), as long as they do not have to deal with the gallo-latin part of this culture (corruption, laziness, over-sophistication, building of hierarchical castes (egg heads of ENA) etc.
3) Alsatians (like all Germans) hate Nazis and are ashamed of what they have done in the name of Germany, so Alsatians are happy not to need to assume responsibility for anti jewish actions as long as they hint behind the French fassade ».
C'est un tissu hilarant de poncifs imbriqués qui ne renforce pas ton raisonnement, si tant est qu'il y en ait un... Je ne comprends pas pourquoi tu sembles penser qu'égrener des clichés éculés te permettra de formuler un argument convaincant. C'est plutôt contreproductif.
Oui mais il existe aussi de *vrais* Alsaciens qui ne parlent guère alémanique. Ce qui n'empêche pas certains d'entre eux d'éprouver de la sympathie pour la reconnaissance des langues parlées dans la région.
K. T. : « The reason is that Alsatians are of German character:
1) they are not very nationalistic but very opportunistic and pragmatic
2) they like French and the French culture (savoir vivre, Leben wie Gott in Frankreich, élégance etc.), as long as they do not have to deal with the gallo-latin part of this culture (corruption, laziness, over-sophistication, building of hierarchical castes (egg heads of ENA) etc.
3) Alsatians (like all Germans) hate Nazis and are ashamed of what they have done in the name of Germany, so Alsatians are happy not to need to assume responsibility for anti jewish actions as long as they hint behind the French fassade ».
C'est un tissu hilarant de poncifs imbriqués qui ne renforce pas ton raisonnement, si tant est qu'il y en ait un... Je ne comprends pas pourquoi tu sembles penser qu'égrener des clichés éculés te permettra de formuler un argument convaincant. C'est plutôt contreproductif.
greg,
Josh doesn't want us to keep discussing Alsace here, but I need to point out that the quotes you attribute to me actually originated with "OiL" and Sam II.
I use "OiL" in quotes because I am not even sure if OïL (note the difference on the second letter) is the same poster now. Please see the original post by OiL on page 7, I believe.
I refer to Sam II's post at the top of this page, page 8.
Josh doesn't want us to keep discussing Alsace here, but I need to point out that the quotes you attribute to me actually originated with "OiL" and Sam II.
I use "OiL" in quotes because I am not even sure if OïL (note the difference on the second letter) is the same poster now. Please see the original post by OiL on page 7, I believe.
I refer to Sam II's post at the top of this page, page 8.
Josh,
Can you keep the posts intact if you do this? If so, I don't mind.
Can you keep the posts intact if you do this? If so, I don't mind.
Josh Lalonde Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:00 pm GMT
I can split the Alsace discussion off into a new thread if you'd like, or you can start one yourself.
Good idea!
I can split the Alsace discussion off into a new thread if you'd like, or you can start one yourself.
Good idea!
Wouldn`t it not be better for the Alsatians as well as for the French if Alsatiant dialect was not whiped out but still current?
The Alsatians speak French, I can't think fo a reason to maintain the Alsatian dialect.
<<... I can't think fo a reason to maintain the Alsatian dialect.>>
A reason would be the possibility for Alsatioans to work successfully in German Baden or the Swizz Basel-region, and vice-versa.
A reason would be the possibility for Alsatioans to work successfully in German Baden or the Swizz Basel-region, and vice-versa.
They are not interested in working there, they prefer their own region and Paris after it.
Mais qu'est-ce que tu dis, Guest?
Une quantité énorme d'Alsaciens traversent chaque jour la frontière (dans le cas d'Alsace, à peine une minute à pied, par le pont sur le fleuve) pour aller travailler en Allemagne ou, en voiture, en Allemagne ou en Suisse, où les salaires sont bien plus élevés qu'en France.
Ja'i vu souvent écrit, sur la presse alsacienne et ailleurs, "Zweisprächigkeit, unsere Zukunft" (Le bilingüisme est notre avenir).
Le fait de parler l'allemand dialectal alsacien (assez peu uniforme, il faut le dire, et assez rapproché de l'allemand dialectal des zones frontalières) est un grand atout pour eux.
Mutatis mutandis, leur cas rappelle celui de pas mal de roussillonnais qui travaillent, ou du moins y ont des rapports commerciels, en Catalogne sous domination espagnole. Pour ceux-là, la maîtrise du catalan est un grand avantage.
Je connais assez bien Perpinyà, où j'ai pas mal d'amis. Je sais très bien de quoi je parle.
Une quantité énorme d'Alsaciens traversent chaque jour la frontière (dans le cas d'Alsace, à peine une minute à pied, par le pont sur le fleuve) pour aller travailler en Allemagne ou, en voiture, en Allemagne ou en Suisse, où les salaires sont bien plus élevés qu'en France.
Ja'i vu souvent écrit, sur la presse alsacienne et ailleurs, "Zweisprächigkeit, unsere Zukunft" (Le bilingüisme est notre avenir).
Le fait de parler l'allemand dialectal alsacien (assez peu uniforme, il faut le dire, et assez rapproché de l'allemand dialectal des zones frontalières) est un grand atout pour eux.
Mutatis mutandis, leur cas rappelle celui de pas mal de roussillonnais qui travaillent, ou du moins y ont des rapports commerciels, en Catalogne sous domination espagnole. Pour ceux-là, la maîtrise du catalan est un grand avantage.
Je connais assez bien Perpinyà, où j'ai pas mal d'amis. Je sais très bien de quoi je parle.