Uriel : bien sûr que la nasalité fait partie du français ! C'est un trait majeur de cette langue. Mais d'un autre côté, quand j'entends de l'anglais d'Amérique du Nord, j'ai l'impression que c'est beaucoup plus nasillard que l'anglais d'Europe. C'est une impression.
some languages more beautiful than others?
Mhmm, je suis d'accord avec Greg. La nasalité fait partie du français et de l'anglais américain. Les Français ne le dénient pas; je ne sais pas pourquoi les américains sont si véhéments en insistant que leur langue n'a pas de nasalité.
Blah... my French has deteriorated so much since I learnt it at school. Greg, je vous en prie, veuillez corriger ce que j'ai écrit au-dessus. Merci!
Anyway, what I mentioned above was... I agree with Greg. French is nasal and so is American English. The French don't deny that, so I don't know why the Americans are so vehement in insisting that their language is not nasal.
Blah... my French has deteriorated so much since I learnt it at school. Greg, je vous en prie, veuillez corriger ce que j'ai écrit au-dessus. Merci!
Anyway, what I mentioned above was... I agree with Greg. French is nasal and so is American English. The French don't deny that, so I don't know why the Americans are so vehement in insisting that their language is not nasal.
Here is my (entirely subjective and somewhat biased) list of the most euphonic European languages according to language group:
Romance: Italian and French (both rate high on musicality, but Italian sounds clearer to me), also Romanian is OK
Germanic: Swedish
Slavic: Polish, Russian, Croatian (despite the similarity, I prefer this last one to Serbian, because it usually sounds softer, and has far less loanwords)
Baltic: Lithuanian
Finno-Ugric: Finnish and Hungarian (with a "heretical" preference to Finnish: it sounds softer to me than my own native language, and has a more recognizable flow and rhythm). I seem to be one of those few who do not think their own language is the best-sounding on earth :) (actually I think Hungarian must have been more euphonic prior to the language reform in the early 19th century, when much of its word-stock was changed, and some grammatical structures slowly disappeared from it).
Other: Mandarin, Korean, Thai, Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia
Although it is pointless from an objective point of view to rate languages based on how they sound, all of us have some subjective emotions attached to this or that language. I have listed those which conjure up the strongest positive emotions in me on first hearing - while of course I appreciate all others as well.
Romance: Italian and French (both rate high on musicality, but Italian sounds clearer to me), also Romanian is OK
Germanic: Swedish
Slavic: Polish, Russian, Croatian (despite the similarity, I prefer this last one to Serbian, because it usually sounds softer, and has far less loanwords)
Baltic: Lithuanian
Finno-Ugric: Finnish and Hungarian (with a "heretical" preference to Finnish: it sounds softer to me than my own native language, and has a more recognizable flow and rhythm). I seem to be one of those few who do not think their own language is the best-sounding on earth :) (actually I think Hungarian must have been more euphonic prior to the language reform in the early 19th century, when much of its word-stock was changed, and some grammatical structures slowly disappeared from it).
Other: Mandarin, Korean, Thai, Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia
Although it is pointless from an objective point of view to rate languages based on how they sound, all of us have some subjective emotions attached to this or that language. I have listed those which conjure up the strongest positive emotions in me on first hearing - while of course I appreciate all others as well.
Heehee: "Anyway, what I mentioned above was... I agree with Greg. French is nasal and so is American English. The French don't deny that, so I don't know why the Americans are so vehement in insisting that their language is not nasal."
I agree with both Greg and Heehee on this point. IMHO, American English (or at least some varieties of it) is rather nasal, although not in the same way as French is. At the very least, it has a nasal twang, and a quite strong vowel nasalisation occurs before nasal consonants. A perfect example of this was one of my teachers at university, who was from Cleveland. She was speaking with a very marked nasal twang all the time. It seems that Midwestern and Mid-Atlantic US accents are generally more nasal than Western or Southern ones, though.
I agree with both Greg and Heehee on this point. IMHO, American English (or at least some varieties of it) is rather nasal, although not in the same way as French is. At the very least, it has a nasal twang, and a quite strong vowel nasalisation occurs before nasal consonants. A perfect example of this was one of my teachers at university, who was from Cleveland. She was speaking with a very marked nasal twang all the time. It seems that Midwestern and Mid-Atlantic US accents are generally more nasal than Western or Southern ones, though.
The sentence:
"She was speaking with a very marked nasal twang all the time" sounds wrong to me. I would say "she spoke with a..."
I have noticed that Hungarian native speakers tend to overuse the past continous in English. Perhaps it is because they (subconciously) equate it with the "imperfective" verbs (without a prefix meg-, el-, etc. in Hungarian.) In english the past continuous really isn't a particularly common verb tense/mood.
Speakers of Slavic languages have similar 'theories' embedded in their idiolects.
I once spoke to a Russian native speaker who insisted that continous forms equate with imperfective and simple past forms equate with perfective verbs in Russian. Worryingly, she was an English teacher.
Not that I am pedantic or anything...:)
"She was speaking with a very marked nasal twang all the time" sounds wrong to me. I would say "she spoke with a..."
I have noticed that Hungarian native speakers tend to overuse the past continous in English. Perhaps it is because they (subconciously) equate it with the "imperfective" verbs (without a prefix meg-, el-, etc. in Hungarian.) In english the past continuous really isn't a particularly common verb tense/mood.
Speakers of Slavic languages have similar 'theories' embedded in their idiolects.
I once spoke to a Russian native speaker who insisted that continous forms equate with imperfective and simple past forms equate with perfective verbs in Russian. Worryingly, she was an English teacher.
Not that I am pedantic or anything...:)
«Purely and sollomly PERSONAL OPINIONS. Sander»
sollomly?????????? How can you, Sander??
sollomly?????????? How can you, Sander??
the sounds "On", "In", "En", "Ein", "Ain", "Un", "Oin", (maybe I forget some)
are the tipical nasal sounds of french.
I don't think that nasal sounds are worse than other...
In french, with a southern accent these sounds are less nasal and tend to be pronounced with a differenciation between the to letters + a sound like a soft "g" (Ex : "Un", willl be "Eu-N-g" and not on nasal sound "EN")
Greg will explain it better with phonetic alphabet !...
are the tipical nasal sounds of french.
I don't think that nasal sounds are worse than other...
In french, with a southern accent these sounds are less nasal and tend to be pronounced with a differenciation between the to letters + a sound like a soft "g" (Ex : "Un", willl be "Eu-N-g" and not on nasal sound "EN")
Greg will explain it better with phonetic alphabet !...
Heehee,
Ne t'inquiète pas pour ton français : tout va très bien ! Et au fait, tu peux me tutoyer.
Ne t'inquiète pas pour ton français : tout va très bien ! Et au fait, tu peux me tutoyer.
Salut bernard. Je suis en train de préparer un comparatif français-portugais-polonais sur les voyelles nasales bientôt dispo sur www.langcafe.net . D'ailleurs, l'expression « voyelle nasale » est tout autant un abus de langage qu'une convention bien établie : tout voyelle dite nasale est forcément nasale ***ET*** orale. Les voyelles dites orales ne sont qu'orales.
Le français possède officiellement 4 phonèmes vocaliques nasaux :
1/ [E~] comme dans <pain> = [pE~]
2/ [Ã] comme dans <enfant> = [ÃfÃ]
3/ [Õ] comme dans <bonbon> = [bÕbÕ]
4/ [9~] comme dans <parfum> = [paRf9~].
En France méridionale — chez les locuteurs ayant « l'accent du Midi », les 4 nasales sont systématiquement suivies :
1/ soit d'une consonne nasale notée [N] qu'on trouve dans <parking> = [paRkiNg] : <pain> = [pE~N], <enfant> = [ÃNfÃN], <bonbon> = [bÕNbÕN] et <parfum> = [paRf9~N]
2/ soit de cette même consonne nasale notée [N] elle-même suivie de la semi-consonne [j] qu'on trouve dans <travail> = [tRavaj] : <pain> = [pE~Nj], <enfant> = [ÃNjfÃNj], <bonbon> = [bÕNjbÕNj] et <parfum> = [paRf9~Nj] (c'est ce qui donne le caractère « mouillé » de certains accents méridionaux très « prononcés »).
Le français possède officiellement 4 phonèmes vocaliques nasaux :
1/ [E~] comme dans <pain> = [pE~]
2/ [Ã] comme dans <enfant> = [ÃfÃ]
3/ [Õ] comme dans <bonbon> = [bÕbÕ]
4/ [9~] comme dans <parfum> = [paRf9~].
En France méridionale — chez les locuteurs ayant « l'accent du Midi », les 4 nasales sont systématiquement suivies :
1/ soit d'une consonne nasale notée [N] qu'on trouve dans <parking> = [paRkiNg] : <pain> = [pE~N], <enfant> = [ÃNfÃN], <bonbon> = [bÕNbÕN] et <parfum> = [paRf9~N]
2/ soit de cette même consonne nasale notée [N] elle-même suivie de la semi-consonne [j] qu'on trouve dans <travail> = [tRavaj] : <pain> = [pE~Nj], <enfant> = [ÃNjfÃNj], <bonbon> = [bÕNjbÕNj] et <parfum> = [paRf9~Nj] (c'est ce qui donne le caractère « mouillé » de certains accents méridionaux très « prononcés »).
As a non-native English speaker....I really like the English language. But of course, I think the latin languages are the most beautiful, especially Italian. That has to be the best. And those who say that American accents are ugly, are just showing the very ugly Anti-American sentiment. That's sad. And it's very untrue, because to somebody who does not speak English (as I once did), the difference is unnoticable. I can tell the difference now, but not before. So, there really is no noticeable difference to the non-native speaker, until he or she has a familiarity with the language. Other than, the Americans speak with a much more neutral tone. I must say, with no offense intended, I find the slavic languages, and almost all Asian languages to be very unattractive. With the exception of Japanese, and Korean, which sound very nice. But, all other Asian languages are very unattractive, especially Chinese, Vietnamese, and Tagalog. This is just my opinion though.
because to somebody who does not speak English (as I once did), the difference is unnoticable.>
This is not true, anybody can recognize a person who speaks British English and a person who speaks American English. And my mother tongue is not English.
This is not true, anybody can recognize a person who speaks British English and a person who speaks American English. And my mother tongue is not English.
The most pleasant sounds to my ear are those of Croatian and Italian.
This is, of course, completely subjective :) I only find something really melodic in those languages.
This is, of course, completely subjective :) I only find something really melodic in those languages.
I am from the deep south of America and I have to agree with some of the french-speakers' posts. I find Northern American (Yankee) accents extremely harsh and nasal. Obviously, though, most of these francophones have never visited the true south. Much of our accent is french/irish/african influenced and is a lot more languid...they might change their opinions. I find the accents in southern Ireland to be the most agreeable of the english (not the Northern, which is a bastardization of the Scottish dialect due to England's transplant of Scottish Presbyterians a couple of hundred years ago). I don't know about vowel sounds or linguistics, but I know that some French people have wonderful accents while others make me want to punch them. I am not sure of the separate regions, but as a moderatly accurate french-speaker, I agree with Greg that nasality is a major part of the language. For that reason, I think that Spanish (the kind spoken in Spain, not Latin America) is extremely beautiful. Escpecially those that have the lisp when they pronounce soft "s" words like "hacer". Chinese and German are the ugliest, though. Too abraisive for my taste.
@Hulsey
"Chinese and German are the ugliest, though."
Aha...
Chinese: Little yellow communiste bastard
German: Evil Nazi pig.
Ergo: German and Chinese languages are bad and ugly
Tell me, how often you have spoken to a person who's mother tongue was High-German or Mandarin??
I think never.
Your are a typical victim of the media politcis in some countries during the last 80 years.
Instead of movies in which the only words Germans have to say are: Achtung Jude! Judensau! etc. etc.
You should watch a modern German movie or why not visit a German theatre play like Goethe's Dr. Faustus(Faust) and many many more. These plays are among the most important plays in the human history.
Or do your self a pleasure and buy a ticket for a German Opera like the Die Zauberflöte, Entführung aus dem Serail, Der Freischütz or the grandios Wagner operas.
Or what about the breath taking bach cantatas?
They are more than 250 years old but these high class was never reached again.
Or the German requiems? Over the last 400 years, some of the world's most beautiful and important requiem's were written in German. I think everybody knows the "Ein deutsches Requiem" by Brahms, which is one of the most performed around the world.
And some German Symphonies including vocal movements. Mahler wrote some beautiful German Symphonies with vocal movments.
And last but not least.
What about the final of Beethoven's 9th Symphony "Ode an die Freude"?
I never heard someone saying: Ugly text, ugly language..
My personal opinion is: Every language has its pro and contra. And there is no THEE language and there is no ugly language.
This idiotic discussion is one for people who never visited other countries or even learned other languages. And it is quite interesting that these valuations of languages are mostly started by people who know nothing about foreign cultures and languages.(based on earlier experiences outside of this forum)
And by the way. Before WWI German was by far the most taught second language in the USA and many, many towns had German names. But after the the USA entered the war, they figured out that German must be an ugly language and baned it widely from the curriculum and renamed countless towns and villages with English names. They also renamed some food, so "Frankfurter" became "Hot Dog".
And that is the way how you can destroy the image of a language. And in a cultural third world country like the USA, these methods could work today. Even we live in the 21st century.
Let's have some "Freedom Fries".
"Chinese and German are the ugliest, though."
Aha...
Chinese: Little yellow communiste bastard
German: Evil Nazi pig.
Ergo: German and Chinese languages are bad and ugly
Tell me, how often you have spoken to a person who's mother tongue was High-German or Mandarin??
I think never.
Your are a typical victim of the media politcis in some countries during the last 80 years.
Instead of movies in which the only words Germans have to say are: Achtung Jude! Judensau! etc. etc.
You should watch a modern German movie or why not visit a German theatre play like Goethe's Dr. Faustus(Faust) and many many more. These plays are among the most important plays in the human history.
Or do your self a pleasure and buy a ticket for a German Opera like the Die Zauberflöte, Entführung aus dem Serail, Der Freischütz or the grandios Wagner operas.
Or what about the breath taking bach cantatas?
They are more than 250 years old but these high class was never reached again.
Or the German requiems? Over the last 400 years, some of the world's most beautiful and important requiem's were written in German. I think everybody knows the "Ein deutsches Requiem" by Brahms, which is one of the most performed around the world.
And some German Symphonies including vocal movements. Mahler wrote some beautiful German Symphonies with vocal movments.
And last but not least.
What about the final of Beethoven's 9th Symphony "Ode an die Freude"?
I never heard someone saying: Ugly text, ugly language..
My personal opinion is: Every language has its pro and contra. And there is no THEE language and there is no ugly language.
This idiotic discussion is one for people who never visited other countries or even learned other languages. And it is quite interesting that these valuations of languages are mostly started by people who know nothing about foreign cultures and languages.(based on earlier experiences outside of this forum)
And by the way. Before WWI German was by far the most taught second language in the USA and many, many towns had German names. But after the the USA entered the war, they figured out that German must be an ugly language and baned it widely from the curriculum and renamed countless towns and villages with English names. They also renamed some food, so "Frankfurter" became "Hot Dog".
And that is the way how you can destroy the image of a language. And in a cultural third world country like the USA, these methods could work today. Even we live in the 21st century.
Let's have some "Freedom Fries".