LL and Y distinction

"Then you're saying that the Castilians were being careless and uncultured when they let MULLER become MUJER, OLLO become OJO, FILLO become HIJO, etc. "

In fact those changes happened at the Middle Ages when 99% of people were illiterate. Nowadays it's different and people must pronounce LL carefully in order to Spanish doesn't keep on diverging from Latin too much.
The more cultured people are the more attention they pay to proper pronunciation . Languges whose speakers are illiterate tend to change much more than those whose speakers are more cultured. I'm not agree with those who say that there is not proper pronunciation and everything is correct.

<< I'm not agree with those who say that there is not proper pronunciation and everything is correct. >>

Again, you're saying things which I never said.

In the case of Spanish, the merge of LL and Y is not considered improper anymore.
Most people learn that LL and Y have the same sound, and many educated people, including native speakers, don't even know that they can be pronounced differently.
You can take a look at modern Spanish textbooks.

But I won't keep you from believing that distinguishing LL and Y in Spanish is better.
You can believe what you want.

If you want to be part of the cultural elite, distinguish LL from Y. If you want to be part of the mass, ok, stick with yeismo. RAE members, the King and other exquisite people pronounce LL properly and different than Y.

<< If you want to be part of the cultural elite, distinguish LL from Y. If you want to be part of the mass, ok, stick with yeismo. RAE members, the King and other exquisite people pronounce LL properly and different than Y. >>

Como crea, senyor.

" If you want to be part of the cultural elite, distinguish LL from Y. If you want to be part of the mass, ok, stick with yeismo. RAE members, the King and other exquisite people pronounce LL properly and different than Y. "

LOL!
Get a life.
Well, if you think so, just do it. ^^

<< In fact those changes happened at the Middle Ages when 99% of people were illiterate. Nowadays it's different and people must pronounce LL carefully in order to Spanish doesn't keep on diverging from Latin too much. >>

But that's silly. There's no particular incentive to keep the language from diverging from Latin. It isn't as if Latin is a better language than Spanish.

However, there *is* an incentive to keep Spanish somewhat unified, and the easiest way to do that is to accept a change that is happening in all dialects, of which yeísmo is a perfect example. Artificially keeping the ll/y distinction will only divide, not unify, because it will never be accepted by everybody.

<< The more cultured people are the more attention they pay to proper pronunciation . Languges whose speakers are illiterate tend to change much more than those whose speakers are more cultured. >>

Well, then, logically, a good way to increase the number of "cultured" people would be to make proper pronunciation easier, since in that case more people would be using proper pronunciation. Accepting yeísmo as standard would be a good way to accomplish that.

- Kef

American Spanish speakers don't pronounce z either, but those who distinguish z from s must preserve that feature. Spanish speakers of both sides of the Atlantic Ocean will still understand each other despite LL is reintroduced , or even if many more phonetic changes take place only in one of both continents because Spanish phonetics is already very limited, so it's hard that a few changes diminish the degree of mutual intelligibility between European and American Spanish.

Proper use of language can't fall to the lowest common denominator only because it would be easier for uneducated people. In fact pronouncing LL like Y is not easier than pronouncing it as a palatal lateral sound. Once you are used to pronounce it that way it's as natural as pronouncing LL and Y the same.For example, when I was a child I said things like "habían varias personas en la sala" which is completely wrong. If my teacher said to me "don't worry, if it's easier for you , dont change the way you speak", I woud not increase my cultural level.

Once we've completely introduced LL sound again we'll do the same with V, so Spanish will look more sophisticated.

<< If my teacher said to me "don't worry, if it's easier for you , dont change the way you speak", I woud not increase my cultural level. >>

I don't think using "habían" instead of "había" really reduces your cultural level... the whole idea that a strict pronunciation/grammar/whatever is more "cultural" is inherently artificial. The only thing that makes it a cultural thing is that people say it is one.

I'm not saying you *should* say "habían varias personas", but rather that I don't consider it to be any kind of degradation of culture. This sort of cultural "degradation" happens all the time and often escapes notice because it's not such a degradation after all. The only reason things like misusing haber in the plural are considered more of a degradation is because the "error" is more obvious.

- Kef

Many people pronounce H already. For example hierba becomes yerba, h in harto is aspired , and so on. It's not strange in Spanish.

Guys, just let this guy/girl live in his imaginary world where the cultured people distinguish LL and Y in pronunciation.

If he wants to believe that and be oblivious to the reality, let him.
Perhaps it'll help him to make himself better, believing that he belongs to the "cultured" milieu.

If he doesn't come to terms with the reality, let's just let him.

A tip: read "The Emperor's New Clothes". ;-)

Pronouncing LL different than Y helps when writing. So you don't make spelling mistakes.