Spanish spelling reform

Guest   Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:07 pm GMT
95% Spanish speaking people don't distinguish LL/Y. Why should a Spanish student learn that difference? Almost no Spanish teacher teaches this...
Güest   Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:11 pm GMT
Over 90% of native speakers don't distinguish S and Z, and practically nobody distinguish B and V
Guest   Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:22 pm GMT
Spanish singers usually distinguish B and V, just listen to them carefully.
Guest   Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:27 pm GMT
Spanish singers can't distinguish B and V because the V phoneme haven't existed in Spanish for centuries
Guest   Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:44 pm GMT
Spanish singers do pronounce V different than B. In fact many of them over-emphasize V and pronounce it like a kind of a F. Just listen to Spaniard singers like Marta Sanchez and you'll notice it. The fact that B is pronounced like V in normal speech does not mean than singers can't pronounce V if they want because they think words sound better or something. In the end singing is like writing poetry, you can use language in different ways. For example in poetry you can change word order , so singers on the other hand can pronounce V. Also teachers decades ago used to pronounce V in order to make things easier for students so they could write vaca and baca properly.
Guest   Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:57 pm GMT
"Over 90% of native speakers don't distinguish S and Z, and practically nobody distinguish B and V"

Spain has more than 45 millions of inhabitants, so Spanish speakers who distinguish C from Z are more than 10%. Also don't think that seseo is cleary the way to go for Spanis students because despite seseante people are numerically dominant, Spain is the most influent Spanish speaking country. It's the same as saying that a French student would better pronounce the rolled r only because there are 90 millions of French speakers in Africa who pronounce r that way and on the other hand France has less population. Raw numbers are not the only factor you must have in mind.
Guest   Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:58 pm GMT
"Over 90% of native speakers don't distinguish S and Z, and practically nobody distinguish B and V"

Spain has more than 45 millions of inhabitants, so Spanish speakers who distinguish C from Z are more than 10%. Also don't think that seseo is cleary the way to go for Spanis students because despite seseante people are numerically dominant, Spain is the most influent Spanish speaking country. It's the same as saying that a French student would better pronounce the rolled r only because there are 90 millions of French speakers in Africa who pronounce r that way and on the other hand France has less population. Raw numbers are not the only factor you must have in mind.
Guest   Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:58 pm GMT
"Over 90% of native speakers don't distinguish S and Z, and practically nobody distinguish B and V"

Spain has more than 45 millions of inhabitants, so Spanish speakers who distinguish C from Z are more than 10%. Also don't think that seseo is cleary the way to go for Spanis students because despite seseante people are numerically dominant, Spain is the most influent Spanish speaking country. It's the same as saying that a French student would better pronounce the rolled r only because there are 90 millions of French speakers in Africa who pronounce r that way and on the other hand France has less population. Raw numbers are not the only factor you must have in mind.
Rodrigo   Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:10 am GMT
Even if everybody distinguished LL/Y, Z/S, and B/V there's still H, and G/J.
Guest   Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:13 am GMT
Yes, but nothing is perfect. Spanish would be very close to perfection.
Güest   Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:09 am GMT
<< Spain has more than 45 millions of inhabitants, so Spanish speakers who distinguish C from Z are more than 10%. >>

You forgot that more than 10% of Spaniards don't distinguish S and Z.
You're smart enough to know what I'm talking about.

Most of Spanish learners outside of Europe are not taught to distinguish S and Z. Even most of Spanish learners in Europe end up not distinguishing both sounds.

And don't you come up to us with distinción being more "cultured" now.
If that's what you want to believe. It's your choice.
It's just a pity if you choose to stay so hidebound and be oblivious to the essence of language learning and usage.
Guest   Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:16 am GMT
"You forgot that more than 10% of Spaniards don't distinguish S and Z "

Yes, and there are people who distinguish C and Z in America, but the standard in Spain is to pronounce Z like TH , and seseante people only pronounce S and Z in familiar situations. When they want to sound serious they pronounce Z properly. In Spain a person who pronounce the letter Z like S could never work in nationwide TV and Radio broadcasting. Since Spain is the most cultured and rich country among the Spanish speaking ones, to pronounce Z and S differente is very important for those who learn Spanish.
Güest   Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:34 am GMT
<< Yes, and there are people who distinguish C and Z in America, but the standard in Spain is to pronounce Z like TH , and seseante people only pronounce S and Z in familiar situations. When they want to sound serious they pronounce Z properly. In Spain a person who pronounce the letter Z like S could never work in nationwide TV and Radio broadcasting. Since Spain is the most cultured and rich country among the Spanish speaking ones, to pronounce Z and S differente is very important for those who learn Spanish. >>

Well, it's the same discussion all over again as LL-Y distinction.

The only difference is that, unlike LL and Y, I do distinguish S and Z when I speak Spanish.
Yet I don't preen myself on that and believing that because of it I'm better than the ceceantes and the seseantes.

Again, all being said and done, you can believe whatever you want.
If distinguishing S and Z makes you feel better, then do it.

As for your looking down upon ceceantes and seseantes, no one can keep you from choosing to have such way of thinking.
Guest   Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:03 am GMT
Seseo isn't Standard European Spanish, that's all. It's a dialectal feature. I don't pretend to belittle seseante people. Furthermore, I find seseo very sexy. But I must admit that I can't stand "zezeo". It sounds extremely ugly.
Guest   Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:02 am GMT
Latin American Spanish is now opn its way to simplification both in grammar and phonology.

I t reminds me of that time when Afrikaans was in this stage but luckily, Dutch and Afrikaans speakers could still understand each other persfectly well.

Now if speakers of different Spanish variants are having a hard time understanding each other, how much more if the speakers of these varainats declare linguistic independence from CAstellano and other variants of it. It would be a a lot easier for them to communicate with Italian or Portuguese speakers.