Chinese Tones

Milton   Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:27 pm GMT
try here, on prof. Canepari's site:

http://venus.unive.it/canipa/pdf/HPr_11_Chinese.pdf
Xie   Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:22 am GMT
>>Or does the song have to be written with that in mind?

Mandarin songs don't follow tones now. Cantonese still do, so... it's much harder to write good Cantonese songs because every tone has to fit in with the melody.

Though, recent Cantonese songs are, for me, just unlistenable. I'm sorry that music is out if you want to learn this language which goes to the "extreme" of tones and is even more frugal about word length. Lyric length isn't that important, but the content (the trend) counts. You can understand Mandarin lyrics without having to be advanced, but if you read recent (not old; old ones are excellent) Cantonese lyrics... oh, I'm afraid I myself can't even read them.
Guest   Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:53 am GMT
If Japanese doesn't have tones, why do they still talk like that? with those funny sounds, can't they try to speak more neutral so they won't sound so funny?
furrykef   Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:49 am GMT
Josh, I don't think there's any point in dignifying comments like that with a response.
Guest   Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:52 pm GMT
<<Mandarin songs don't follow tones now. Cantonese still do, so... it's much harder to write good Cantonese songs because every tone has to fit in with the melody.
,,,>>

Xie, Thanks!
K. T.   Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:10 am GMT
I'm sorry if I misled anyone. No, Japanese is not a "tonal" language, it has pitch accent.
Chris   Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:24 pm GMT
Punjabi has three tones
DJ   Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 pm GMT
If you don't get your tones right, the probability is that Chinese people will not understand you - and may think you are speaking English. I am living in China, and find that the more educated people (university students etc) who come into contact with foreigners more often can understand Chinese with a foreign accent better. My Chinese friends can understand my Chinese perfectly, because they are used to me. But ordinary people in the street are very unlikely to understand badly pronounced Chinese, especially if not slowly enunciated. Also: simpler sentences might be understood more readily, as complex vocabulary in Chinese suffers from the problem that there are many, many homophones in Chinese, and the more complex the discussion gets, the more abstruse the language, and the more vital to retain any tonal distinctions there are. The most advanced Chinese includes many "idioms" or chengyu, and if you don't pronounce them correctly, they will puzzle your interlocutor, as they often contain less frequently used characters. I tried the other day using the chengu kuangquanfeiri... leading to endless discussion of "which kuang" "which quan" "which fei" "which ri"... if i had been written down it would have been obvious that it means "like a mad dog barking at the sun"...
Xie   Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:49 am GMT
狂犬吠日? Well, sorry, shame on me, I don't even know what that means.... could you tell me? That sounds like a "real" idiom I might have heard before (yes, I trust you).... but with some exposure to *Mandarin*, only through a podcast, I've never heard of this idiom in my life.

So, that's it. Mandarin is widespread throughout the country and beyond, and the poorest educated Chinese would understand at least a bit of what you are saying, but while *most* Mandarin idioms are shared by others, not every native knows *literally a lot* of very subtle stuff of the language.

The moral is: as a natural phenomenon, an individual language is used by a lot of people - different gender, age, education level and so on -, and don't expect everyone would understand the (high-)educated speech (and even the well educated ones). Like if you are into our classic novels, such as The Dream of the Red Chamber, and if you bump into me, probably you would be out of luck if you want to find a native who knows this novel and has read it. Not every native is into refining their own speech through extensive reading, but a (conscious) language learner is often well educated and into language (and literature) stuff...
DJ   Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:27 pm GMT
狂犬吠日 is listed in the dictionary as meaning "to make futile efforts".

OK, Xie, do you know: 兔死狗烹,鸟尽弓藏?This has also given rise to endless discussion when I tried to use it, although other Chinese people knew it straightaway.
Xie   Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:31 am GMT
I've also seen that it might be "for bad people to make futile efforts".

==

兔死狗烹,鸟尽弓藏: This is a very typical idiom used in Chinese history. Literally, you might know, it is "the rabbit dies, the dogs (gets) cooked; the birds are gone (hunted), the bow (gets) hidden". It comes from some old historical records (as are many other idioms): a king or an emperor would order his generals and officials to, in most cases, fight for the throne / supremacy over a large territory /the whole of China. So, the battles are won, and for whatever reasons, the generals/officials would become arrogant or complacent or the king/emperor would feel jealous/threatened by the generals/officials who might gain popularity because of their contribution or both. Then, in that case, the generals/officials would try to get out of the trouble by giving up their positions (getting retired, and never see the emperor agian) or, if they still stay arrogant, get killed or forced to commit suicide.

It comes from exactly a real story like such. You might be interested to see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Goujian_of_Yue : the king,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_Li : the official who managed to get out of the trouble
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Zhong_%28Spring_and_Autumn%29 : the official who got killed

I've also heard of similar stories when I was taught what
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongwu_Emperor

the first emperor of Ming Dynasty did to kill/exile/do anything whatever to "eliminate" officials who won the throne for him. You would most probably come across this idiom in such historical/political discussions. I say typical because it's a recurring political phenomenon in China. It might be connected to "absolute monarchy", in which only one man could rule, and all others shall be either defeated (other regimes) or destroyed or exiled (even the most competent officals). That's why, as a side note, we often say the Chinese "are never united", because the leaders (in whichever social structure: a kingdom, a company...) often engage in power struggles.
DJ   Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:28 am GMT
I think this idiom explains why many rebellions lasted for decades in Chinese history - the generals were afraid of outliving their usefulness (which is the best translation of this idiom).