Antimoon creators don't think this is the best way to learn English. What do you think about taking classes if you are an adult?
Learning a Foreign Language in a Class
Firstly, think it depends on the teacher's skills and accent.
If the teacher is good, it's a great idea to take classes until you reach an intermediate level because then you'll know the basic rules, pronunciation, etc, correctly and can move forward from there, to learn on your own.
Even if the teacher is not that good, think it's always nice to be able to ask questions and have some study guideline, somewhere to start from. It's harder to study on your own... plus, you can always learn from other people's doubts and mistakes...
Of course in a class you're dependent on everyone's learning speed as well, not just your own, and learning could get boring...
If the teacher is good, it's a great idea to take classes until you reach an intermediate level because then you'll know the basic rules, pronunciation, etc, correctly and can move forward from there, to learn on your own.
Even if the teacher is not that good, think it's always nice to be able to ask questions and have some study guideline, somewhere to start from. It's harder to study on your own... plus, you can always learn from other people's doubts and mistakes...
Of course in a class you're dependent on everyone's learning speed as well, not just your own, and learning could get boring...
Small classes can better accomodate individual students' needs. A small class of maybe six students probably wouldn't be a bad idea, though one-on-one tutoring would be even better. I'm skeptical of the value of a traditional class with a relatively large number of students, though. It's too hard to accomodate everyone's needs and usually the whole class suffers as a result.
- Kef
- Kef
for me learning grammar is far more important than learning the tongue vulgarly. I'm majoring in French, so I have to go to school. No choice in this one
But doesn't it make sense to learn grammar after you know at least a little of the language?
Otherwise it's just theory and no practice.
I still think that taking classes is always good when you're only starting to learn a language, even if there are more than 6 students. It's better than none.
Otherwise it's just theory and no practice.
I still think that taking classes is always good when you're only starting to learn a language, even if there are more than 6 students. It's better than none.
I know of a foreign language class that is having problems because of the varied backgrounds of the students. The problem is the speed of the class.
I would like to suggest that the teacher aim for the middle, not the weakest student. What would others here suggest?
How much new vocabulary is suitable for a beginning foreign language class? How many words?
In the class two students are already bilingual in other languages, two have probably studied the target language before, and one admits to being terrible at languages.
I would like to suggest that the teacher aim for the middle, not the weakest student. What would others here suggest?
How much new vocabulary is suitable for a beginning foreign language class? How many words?
In the class two students are already bilingual in other languages, two have probably studied the target language before, and one admits to being terrible at languages.
Think it depends on the duration of the class, how often it's held, if students are expected to do homework...
Not thinking too much about it, if it's a weekly class, I would say at least 10 new words, but no more than 25, also depending on the subject.
Not thinking too much about it, if it's a weekly class, I would say at least 10 new words, but no more than 25, also depending on the subject.
The class is twice a week. One of the students (the weakest one) complained that there were thirty words in one class, but one of the bilinguals is only coming every third or fourth class because it's too easy. She's bilingual in another language.
Thank-you for your comments. I am not teaching this class, but I may be asked to sub for it.
I don't know if the students do homework or not.
It's interesting that the grammar vs. vocabulary debate has already been an issue in the class.
Thank-you for your comments. I am not teaching this class, but I may be asked to sub for it.
I don't know if the students do homework or not.
It's interesting that the grammar vs. vocabulary debate has already been an issue in the class.
Oh, the students seem really interested in the class as well, don't they?^^
I was once studying Japanese at night but in college at the same time and it was a bit difficult for me to keep up with classes... guess mostly because I arrived late and had to skip a few classes along the way as well... so probably 30 words per class was too much for me too, especially if they were only said once and then expected to be used in some context without examples...
But some people there didn't have any problem whatsoever and even thought classes were rather slow.
Anyway, my point is that it's hard to judge everyone's background and abilities and make a fair decision, also when some people always come to class and other just when they can or want. Even the bilingual girl might think classes are easy because she knows some similar language already, which doesn't mean the classes are easy per se.
I reckon your efforts in trying to do a good job^^ think you were right earlier, the teacher should aim for the middle.
I was once studying Japanese at night but in college at the same time and it was a bit difficult for me to keep up with classes... guess mostly because I arrived late and had to skip a few classes along the way as well... so probably 30 words per class was too much for me too, especially if they were only said once and then expected to be used in some context without examples...
But some people there didn't have any problem whatsoever and even thought classes were rather slow.
Anyway, my point is that it's hard to judge everyone's background and abilities and make a fair decision, also when some people always come to class and other just when they can or want. Even the bilingual girl might think classes are easy because she knows some similar language already, which doesn't mean the classes are easy per se.
I reckon your efforts in trying to do a good job^^ think you were right earlier, the teacher should aim for the middle.
>>
Of course in a class you're dependent on everyone's learning speed as well, not just your own, and learning could get boring...
Agree.
>>
A small class of maybe six students probably wouldn't be a bad idea, though one-on-one tutoring would be even better.
But taking the real cost into account, I don't see the point of joining classes or seeking tutors at all.
>>so probably 30 words per class was too much for me too, especially if they were only said once and then expected to be used in some context without examples...
I don't think so. Regardless of boredom, which is actually not neglect-able, 30 words per 1-hour lesson might be quite rigid, but much better than starting small talks for 3 such lessons on the same topic using only 30 words with horrible accents. Like in my place, people tend not to like words, and in Eu. lang. classes, people tend to start small talks very quickly. I attended such classes, really, for the sake of my GPA, and I witnessed how ineffective it had been. The problem of chatting too early has been addressed by the webmasters of this site. I don't intend to bash classes (and if I become fluent in a lot of languages, I might become the very teacher doing such jobs), but the idea is quite bad for me.
On the other hand, I find that Japanese classes here are quite different because they are truly vocabulary heavy, more so than any other language self-studying courses in English you can find (except vocab. courses), mainly because we have a lot of comprehensive (actually bad) Japanese books in Chinese, and we enjoy a significant discount in learning Japanese (words are much easier to remember); people learning eu. lang., however, would all have to rely on english translations instead - most of the time, to be precise, because few know that there are good Chinese books.
I must be biased for geographical and linguistic reasons. We don't have a lot of nice chatting classes; many of you learn eu. lang. for free/inexpensively in school, but many of us have to spend a lot (a faithful class learner would have to spend several thousands of USD on a full class Spanish course for 2 years); lastly, there are very few cognates we can rely/trust, so that I personally use English to learn others almost all the time. So, back to the topic, I won't ever take classes at all - apart from cost, I can learn much more even with a single Assimil course alone, given that I can read English.
Of course in a class you're dependent on everyone's learning speed as well, not just your own, and learning could get boring...
Agree.
>>
A small class of maybe six students probably wouldn't be a bad idea, though one-on-one tutoring would be even better.
But taking the real cost into account, I don't see the point of joining classes or seeking tutors at all.
>>so probably 30 words per class was too much for me too, especially if they were only said once and then expected to be used in some context without examples...
I don't think so. Regardless of boredom, which is actually not neglect-able, 30 words per 1-hour lesson might be quite rigid, but much better than starting small talks for 3 such lessons on the same topic using only 30 words with horrible accents. Like in my place, people tend not to like words, and in Eu. lang. classes, people tend to start small talks very quickly. I attended such classes, really, for the sake of my GPA, and I witnessed how ineffective it had been. The problem of chatting too early has been addressed by the webmasters of this site. I don't intend to bash classes (and if I become fluent in a lot of languages, I might become the very teacher doing such jobs), but the idea is quite bad for me.
On the other hand, I find that Japanese classes here are quite different because they are truly vocabulary heavy, more so than any other language self-studying courses in English you can find (except vocab. courses), mainly because we have a lot of comprehensive (actually bad) Japanese books in Chinese, and we enjoy a significant discount in learning Japanese (words are much easier to remember); people learning eu. lang., however, would all have to rely on english translations instead - most of the time, to be precise, because few know that there are good Chinese books.
I must be biased for geographical and linguistic reasons. We don't have a lot of nice chatting classes; many of you learn eu. lang. for free/inexpensively in school, but many of us have to spend a lot (a faithful class learner would have to spend several thousands of USD on a full class Spanish course for 2 years); lastly, there are very few cognates we can rely/trust, so that I personally use English to learn others almost all the time. So, back to the topic, I won't ever take classes at all - apart from cost, I can learn much more even with a single Assimil course alone, given that I can read English.
<<I don't think so. Regardless of boredom, which is actually not neglect-able, 30 words per 1-hour lesson might be quite rigid, but much better than starting small talks for 3 such lessons on the same topic using only 30 words with horrible accents.>>
Oh no, I was just trying to say that 30 words were a lot for me *at that time* because of some circumstances which prevent me from attending classes and studying properly, not that the class should be lighter or anything like that.
And well, actually classes in school aren't always good, many people pay for language courses (the same ones they got at school) to improve their skills if they really need them, at least where I live.
The bad thing about studying alone is that you have to auto-discipline yourself, otherwise you won't improve.
Xie, are Japanese classes cheaper than Eu languages ones where you live?
Oh no, I was just trying to say that 30 words were a lot for me *at that time* because of some circumstances which prevent me from attending classes and studying properly, not that the class should be lighter or anything like that.
And well, actually classes in school aren't always good, many people pay for language courses (the same ones they got at school) to improve their skills if they really need them, at least where I live.
The bad thing about studying alone is that you have to auto-discipline yourself, otherwise you won't improve.
Xie, are Japanese classes cheaper than Eu languages ones where you live?
>>Oh no, I was just trying to say that 30 words were a lot for me *at that time* because of some circumstances which prevent me from attending classes and studying properly, not that the class should be lighter or anything like that.
But my stance is still the same. In both Japanese (1 time) and German classes (2 times) I attended, it's common for people to skip lessons, which actually slowed down the class progress, because the teachers were often very concerned about that. 30 words sound rigid, because the Japanese class (quite typical) uses a popular textbook for class settings, and that book is basically word lists + dialogue drills + blanks, etc, i.e. Minna no Nihongo. Everyone tended to look at word lists all the time to start small talks in class, and... well, just imagine how stupid it is to read dialogues by referring to the book all the time, rather than talking fluently with a good accent without much effort - which I, always with *poor* (not savant) memory, could do so easily with Assimil or Michel Thomas or Pimsleur or FSI. This has left me a very bad impression about class courses, because, like what the antimoon webmasters say, you rarely get the chance to speak, and even if you do, you are probably making a lot of mistakes that would get fossilized.
Class settings tend to be forcing people *softly* to learn what they would regret. The local university/famous language institute/"labour union" (inexpensive) courses are generally like that. To be fair, one does learn something and does benefit somewhat through joining courses, but the *attrition rate* is far too high, when students are often not putting their mind to it. If they take a university course, which takes credits, they would either do it for GPA or start from scratch. When I was enrolling at the German course, some people asked what the point was to learn from scratch (i.e. they wanted to get grades only), and chose a class where the teacher was not *strict*, and guess what, that class became the biggest with 30 people, and like my class with perhaps the fewest (around 20, still quite big), people attended lessons out of different purposes.
No, really, I just think *normal* class settings seldom serve their purposes. I used to tell my friends in this fashion almost like preaching, but I won't bother to do so, because it's basically a permanent political phenomenon. It seems to me that only the real FSI settings or religious (??like the mormons, I suppose?) would truly work...
Prices actually vary. I'm not learning Japanese and won't join any class again, but well... there is no Japanese Alliance or Institut, and a lot of Japanese expats and *advanced* Chinese teachers are teaching Japanese here. They are generally cheaper than Spanish (see above)/French/German courses, but I hear from time to time that some teachers have only passed JLPT2 or they have a bad Chinese accent, etc.
But my stance is still the same. In both Japanese (1 time) and German classes (2 times) I attended, it's common for people to skip lessons, which actually slowed down the class progress, because the teachers were often very concerned about that. 30 words sound rigid, because the Japanese class (quite typical) uses a popular textbook for class settings, and that book is basically word lists + dialogue drills + blanks, etc, i.e. Minna no Nihongo. Everyone tended to look at word lists all the time to start small talks in class, and... well, just imagine how stupid it is to read dialogues by referring to the book all the time, rather than talking fluently with a good accent without much effort - which I, always with *poor* (not savant) memory, could do so easily with Assimil or Michel Thomas or Pimsleur or FSI. This has left me a very bad impression about class courses, because, like what the antimoon webmasters say, you rarely get the chance to speak, and even if you do, you are probably making a lot of mistakes that would get fossilized.
Class settings tend to be forcing people *softly* to learn what they would regret. The local university/famous language institute/"labour union" (inexpensive) courses are generally like that. To be fair, one does learn something and does benefit somewhat through joining courses, but the *attrition rate* is far too high, when students are often not putting their mind to it. If they take a university course, which takes credits, they would either do it for GPA or start from scratch. When I was enrolling at the German course, some people asked what the point was to learn from scratch (i.e. they wanted to get grades only), and chose a class where the teacher was not *strict*, and guess what, that class became the biggest with 30 people, and like my class with perhaps the fewest (around 20, still quite big), people attended lessons out of different purposes.
No, really, I just think *normal* class settings seldom serve their purposes. I used to tell my friends in this fashion almost like preaching, but I won't bother to do so, because it's basically a permanent political phenomenon. It seems to me that only the real FSI settings or religious (??like the mormons, I suppose?) would truly work...
Prices actually vary. I'm not learning Japanese and won't join any class again, but well... there is no Japanese Alliance or Institut, and a lot of Japanese expats and *advanced* Chinese teachers are teaching Japanese here. They are generally cheaper than Spanish (see above)/French/German courses, but I hear from time to time that some teachers have only passed JLPT2 or they have a bad Chinese accent, etc.
Xie where do you live if I may ask..... Thanks in advance for your kind answer :-)
Hong Kong. If I live in the north of it, I wouldn't probably be able to talk about that, because people there rarely have chances to learn something as French/German, which is so much a luxury. Learning centres can only be found in a few bigger Chinese cities, and the tuition fees are as expensive as in Hong Kong. So, people generally learn on their own instead.
In relation to "class", I've been told recently that requirements of ESL jobs in Guangzhou, for example, are getting stricter. It seems like class courses or even private tutoring is becoming popular, and ESL teachers must be natives and have received training, etc.
In relation to "class", I've been told recently that requirements of ESL jobs in Guangzhou, for example, are getting stricter. It seems like class courses or even private tutoring is becoming popular, and ESL teachers must be natives and have received training, etc.