Successful English Learners

Geoff_One   Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:53 pm GMT
<< Stories of people who have learned English well. >>

Stories about people who have learned English to a high standard.
Guest   Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:51 pm GMT
Did you correct Tom's English? He never claimed to write flawless, error-free language.
Guest2   Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:24 am GMT
What is Geoff_One's point? Tom's sentence is simple and natural. (Which is apparently the way he tries to write, considering his audience.) "Stories about...to a high standard" doesn't sound better to my native speaker ears.
Guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:51 am GMT
Тhey lie when they say they learned English perfectly in 2 years. YEAH RIGHT! Without going to an English speaking country? Even going that's impossible to believe.
Guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:33 pm GMT
Geoff_One, what's your point? There's nothing wrong with Tom's sentence, if that's what you're saying. Your version just sounds stilted and unnecessary.
Guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:22 pm GMT
Tom's version sounds much better to me, as a native speaker.
Guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:31 pm GMT
<Тhey lie when they say they learned English perfectly in 2 years. YEAH RIGHT! Without going to an English speaking country? Even going that's impossible to believe. >>

If some folks manage to learn English to native-like proficiency in only two years, it just goes to show how simple English really is, compared to other languages.
Guest2   Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:46 pm GMT
"Тhey lie when they say they learned English perfectly in 2 years. YEAH RIGHT! Without going to an English speaking country? Even going that's impossible to believe."

First of all, the Antimoon guys had some background in English before the two years.

Secondly, "even going" is certainly not impossible. There are people who have become well-known writers in less time, after having emigrated to a new country as adults. And I know of many people personally who have become native-like in an equally short time.

Finally, with the right method, motivation, and TIME (these guys were not goofing around), it is definitely possible to become native-like without leaving one's country. There are too many documented examples to pretend that this is "impossible."

As to the point of the last thread: It may be true that English really is easier than others. (In which case you'd have to throw in Indonesian, Afrikaans, et al.) It's also probably the case that the closer the language, the faster the learning, regardless of the difficulties (e.g., Polish to Russian.) Having said that, there are people who have become native-like even in very different languages: My Japanese teacher told us of an Israeli who became a best-selling author in Japanese (maybe the most complicated writing system in the world) after ONE year there. She said that his writing was not very formal, but very accurate.
Guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:48 pm GMT
I think you are missing something. They had previous exposure to English through music, etc. I think they dramatically INCREASED their proficiency (at least in writing-I've never heard them speak beyond the clips) and Tom's good language skills are evident.
Jasper   Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:25 pm GMT
<<Finally, with the right method, motivation, and TIME (these guys were not goofing around), it is definitely possible to become native-like without leaving one's country. There are too many documented examples to pretend that this is "impossible." >>

Depends upon your definition of "native-like".

I think it's possible for a non-native to learn correct formal English--even to the point of being native-like--but I don't think it's possible to learn the complexities.

When I moved to Nevada in 1980, I learned that the complexities were different, even right here in the US. I'm still learning, and I'm a native.
Xie   Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:38 am GMT
>>>Finally, with the right method, motivation, and TIME (these guys were not goofing around), it is definitely possible to become native-like without leaving one's country. There are too many documented examples to pretend that this is "impossible." <<<

In terms of identity, everyone should be more or less equal - in a philosophical sense. Is native fluency all that important? How on earth could someone forever a foreigner despite having stayed in a "foreign" country for multiple years and learnt the local language to a "high standard"? That's entirely possible and it ultimately comes down to social status.

Me. I did go to some foreign countries, but not an Anglophone one. I've never been alone as a Chinese, and my experience (also philosophical) isn't exactly what you would ever understand fully - you wouldn't possibly live like me for two decades in a country without ever even leaving my native province (or your state), would you?

By native-like we might be compelled to mean, while it's impossible to regain life experiences (all over again after birth), it's possible to sound like you've been in THAT foreign land for a long time, and it'd be your unique experience that would pay off (like the Israeli above).
Guest2   Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:14 am GMT
Jasper,

Actually, I've known people who became very fluent in a non-formal way, because they did not study in a class, but instead picked it up conversationally. (Including one guy who became fluent in Spanish--talking to Puerto Ricans in Chicago.) In fact, some of those people have trouble switching to formal language when the circumstances require it.

By the way: Krashen has an interesting article about a Mexican immigrant who learned Hebrew fluently--working in an Israeli restaurant in L.A.

http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/all.html

And besides being unrelated to Spanish, Hebrew is hardly the easiest grammar in the world.