Which language has the LARGEST vocabulary?

Xie   Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:04 pm GMT
My reasoning is based on a few observations.

Let's think about it this way: now, think about, esp. if you aren't Anglophone and know English (or vice versa), how much English has been translated from and into? In the Chinese world, the fact is very FEW people would ever be able to understand non-English foreign stuff AT ALL. This group must probably be foreign language students (tertiary), and those who aren't are, if not non-existent, very rare. The result is that, while info. of many languages has been translated into English, like Chinese, seldom would people translate from among those languages back into their native.

Yes, the Chinese have translated frequently from everything of German, French, Russian, Japanese, etc, but then much more material, esp. contemporary ones, go untranslated. "Most" that we can obtain has already been, for technical reasons, filtered through English. The huge vocabulary gap has to be supplemented by English, and that boosts English itself. I can't even discuss in Chinese many "newer" concepts, esp. from non-English areas, when I don't even have the equivalents at the first place. This is, as I see it, one reason why English Wikipedia's articles far outnumber ALL others.
Guest   Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:03 pm GMT
I could improve the Spanish Wikipedia but since I mostly contribute to my country's article I rather do it in English so more people can see it.
Mike   Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:56 am GMT
Xie,

你说英语词汇大,大在哪里?概念多?确实有部分英语词汇无法直接翻译成汉语,但又有多少汉语的概念不能翻译成英语的?自己去数数。

中国现在每年翻译的外文书籍、资料数倍于日本,这在90年代以前是不可想象的。

日本曾是世界翻译大国,每年有数不清的西文词汇被转换成片假名后收入外来语词典,日本人又有多少人知晓这些西方的概念?以前中国翻译日本的外来语词典有些困难,有些词暂时找不到汉语中的对等词,而现在根本不是问题。就算英语引进气功(Qi gong)一词,又有多少人真正了解气功?

你说的维基百科是不错,政府是不应该屏蔽掉,但维基有些条目的解释是很无聊的,就学术性而言,维基并不严谨。

百度百科不要谈,确实不怎么样,抄袭的文章很多。互动维客就不错,虽然是仿照维基办的,但也有很多自己的东西。

英语确实很“大”,我不想谈英语在国际上的地位,也不想谈世界上有多少科技论文使用英语写成---我承认英语的主宰地位,但就事论事,就像楼主说的阿拉伯语有9百万词汇我就相信,因为阿拉伯语中表示“红”这个概念的词就达近200个,词根稍稍变化一下就变成另外一个词了。

再谈谈你的受教育背景,不难看出你是“英语为主,汉语为辅”的“受害者”,谁都会认为自己的第一语言“很伟大,了不起”,就像很多操西班牙语的人都认为西班牙语比英语词汇丰富一样。

不光香港,大陆和你有一样想法的人很多,有些人甚至认为用汉语写一篇关于鱼类的科技文章都是行不通的,但试想一下这些人有多少是站在科技的前沿,还是他们的主观臆断?
Mike   Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:22 am GMT
Xie:

还有,我是昨天的Hoodong,我昨天哪里有提到百度百科了?

我不是打广告,因为没必要,我不是那里的编辑,很多华人都知道那个网站的。

从阁下对大陆的资料“没兴趣”也不难理解你的结论。我们假设“互动维客“的233万词条是由大量抄袭维基而得来的(不大可能,因为维基在大陆不可用)那也是网民辛辛苦苦翻译而来的,就怎么很垃圾了呢?
Xie   Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:39 am GMT
我認為問題還不是"多不多",而是有沒有人會理會。我憑什麼說”這裡”有很多人”受害”?原因是香港的大學本身就(到現在為止)都不以中文為官方語言,又要進行所謂國際化;即使香港/大陸學生談論科目的任何東西,都很自然以中文為主,也不免脫離英文的局限,用中文思考,但寫論文還是要用英文,結果就是(依我看;最少)有些人的英文還是挺糟的,不過尚可以應付他們本身的”專業”(在香港連專業都談不上,只叫主修,可能真的有些經濟原因)。

以後中文詞彙可以怎樣擴展,我看都是由大陸的學者決定的了。香港這個小城市,在這方面可真是沒有前途,尤其當很多人都不願意去讀書(讀只是為了找工作),不願意為學術付出。

不是,維基只是參考,但寫論文時最多只可以用來”加深對主題的印象”(但也甚至會形成一些偏見),只可以用來”參考”其書目,去找資料……

>>>不光香港,大陆和你有一样想法的人很多,有些人甚至认为用汉语写一篇关于鱼类的科技文章都是行不通的,但试想一下这些人有多少是站在科技的前沿,还是他们的主观臆断?<<<

我膽敢斷言,這裡會談學術的人還是有的,但實在沒有什麼學術風可言(我也在大學學習)。我們那種窮很不同(也跟本主題沒什麼關係)。我們那種窮不是沒錢交學費,而是從來給出一些藉口,說自己沒時間去研究學術,結果就是很多人以為讀過大學就算受過高等教育,但”英文”還是糟透的,中文都好不到那兒去。文史哲理,統統都缺乏內地那種(當然是大規模的)發展勢頭。這裡,我也覺得中文的前途都在內地的朋友手上的了。這裡的人不是不懂中文,而是他們連怎麼思考都已經不太懂了。我以前在內地語言中所謂重點中學(都是英文教學;但質素很差)學習,現在在所謂首幾位的大學學習,但還是沒遇到很多真的讀很多書(課外的,學術的,甚至是通俗小說)的人;在維基,甚至在這裡(我指主要是Anglophone的朋友),能談這些話題的人都_非常多_。我對此甚感欣賞,但也同時為陪伴我超過十幾年的文化圈子甚感慨嘆。

我的話已經變了社會討論;只好說,就當我這些都是個人臆測吧(很多人連內地的電視頻道都不能看,什麼辯論會,什麼大講堂,什麼百家講壇,都是一無所知的,這是主權移交十年後的情況)。
Xie   Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am GMT
啊,沒什麼,我總是對這些東西過慮了,又是主觀感受作怪。

但我都說了,至少我相信,平常閱讀百科,當是一種消遣,或者只是好奇看看資料,都還可以的,但要寫論文的話,真不要”太依賴”(我遇過的一些教授,甚至認為不能看)。說到底,你也明白我在想什麼了--就是因為xx百科在我的思維中沒有什麼作用;維基都尚且”不能用得太多”,更何況是我一直懷疑的xx百科(還有好幾種!)?

==

我還是認為這跟詞彙量沒有很大的關係。要譯,根本不難,也就是不是不能;我每次在新華書店逛,我都像一個……小朋友,或者是剛出城的鄉下人,對眼前一大堆看不完的書都甚感興趣,每次都覺得:真厲害,怎麼每次來都有_這麼多好書_可以看?

不為才是最要命的。我也知道,往往要學某些語文才可以得到某些知識(就像中文還沒有的),但是也不能犠牲太多時間去專攻某語文(我還是要看書)。那麼,期待有人會用中文寫出這些知識,很正常;但如果沒有,就只好學外文了;但如果甚至不能用中文研究,也就只好不看中文、不寫中文了。那麼,結果是很明顯的。由於我程度還很低,所以我學任何外文,要總得找個中文翻譯--這樣看來,我也不用去證實漢語大辭典一類辭書有幾多條詞條。我只知道,只要有人願意寫,也不難大幅擴充中文詞彙,但是普遍學者、大學生和一般民眾懂不懂(當然也只是對他們有用的一部份),就是另一回事了。
Mike   Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:16 am GMT
Mr.Xie

我怎么和你联络呢?MSN?
Guest   Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:09 am GMT
I suspect it's English. I do not think it is Japanese (which someone threw into the mix with Chinese for some unknown reason), but I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese is second.
Guest2   Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:40 am GMT
The standard line is that "English has the largest vocabulary." The "proof" given is that English dictionaries have more words, and the "reason" given is the massive influx of French words after the Norman invasion, giving English "doubles" for many concepts.

There is a problem with both the "proof" and the "reason."

English "unabridged" dictionaries usually do have more words. But as lexicographers have pointed out, these dictionaries tend to include many words that are obsolete, as well as technical terms (as mentioned by another poster) that are often left out of similar dictionaries in other languages. (Like the thousands and thousands of characters that are listed in historical Chinese character dictionaries, that are no longer used.)

As for the French vocabulary: Yes, English does have "doubles" for many concepts. But so do other languages! What about Japanese? They usually have a KUN (native Japanese) and ON (Chinese) reading for every character. If you throw in a third source--the thousands of English words they've borrowed--you can argue that Japanese has the largest vocabulary! Or what about modern Norwegian? With Bokmål and Nynorsk both in use, along with the many other dialects, Norwegian has an incredibly rich vocabulary. Or modern Spanish with the input of all the Peninsular dialects, and borrowings from a large number of New World tongues? Even so-called "primitive" languages have huge vocabularies, with words and concepts that are not easily translated into English.

I think the reputation for English as largest vocabulary is overblown. (Like the statement that English is the global language because it is easier--rather than because of the British Empire and the spread of American power and culture.)
Guest   Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:58 am GMT
The international importance of English is the most overblown thing of them all.
Guest   Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:08 am GMT
if person names are counted as words,then Chinese hands down.

Even if every 100 Chinese people share one common name,there are still 14 million,and Western will have big trouble transliterating these Chinese names because of the abundance of homophones.

on the contrary ,the Chinese will have less trouble with that,there're huge Dictionaries guilding them how to write foreign names properly.
Delac Smith   Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:24 am GMT
ok guys,

then what's the smallest human language?
Xie   Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:33 am GMT
>>>我怎么和你联络呢?MSN?<<<

這個……請在HTLAL搜尋我的名字,在那裡PM我;在這裡貼太危險了。

>>>I think the reputation for English as largest vocabulary is overblown. (Like the statement that English is the global language because it is easier--rather than because of the British Empire and the spread of American power and culture.)<<<

But I'd argue that is exactly the reason of English having the supposedly largest vocabulary, again based on my reasoning. Yet, the sad thing about recognizing the reality is that, while YOU can say the statement you gave is pure nonsense, when MANY people believe so, YOU aren't really stupid, but you are either too smart or eccentric for the grown-ups to believe you! That's the worst thing about culture: groupthink. Despite apparent _pitfalls_ and easiness, you can see that theoretically all sorts of languages are equally difficult for their very identical purpose, namely for expressing (very complex) ideas - though I do see English would tend to have _more_ words than any others because "everyone" is expanding its corpus.
Guest   Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:57 pm GMT
re: Xie,

I'm not picking on you Xie, just friendly advice...but does anyone else besides me have problems with his writing? Your English looks superficially fluent and educated, but I find your writing confusing--like you're trying to use every term in the thesaurus, whether it applies or not.

My advise: keep your sentences simple and straightforward. Use the Antimoon guys (Tom and Michal) as examples.

Thanks. (Xie xie, Xie.)
Guest   Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:18 am GMT
I have found the same difficulties with reading his posts. He doesn't make any obvious grammatical errors, yet I find it hard to understand what he's saying a lot of the time...