There is an article on Antimoon which mentions "grammar rules".
http://www.antimoon.com/other/englishclass.htm
To this day, I do not fully understand Antimoon's attitude toward grammar rules.
First of all, I don't know what Antimoon means by "grammar rules".
Once I know what they mean, I could take a stance.
I'll just give some examples of grammar rules:
- When you put two qualitative adjectives in front of a noun, you put `and' or a comma between the adjectives.
- "Greatly" is only used in front of adjectives ending in '-ed' and the adjectives "different" and "superior".
- "Even" usually goes after an auxiliary or modal, not in front of it.
- If you begin a sentence with even if or even though, you do not put `yet' or `but' at the beginning of the main clause.
- You often use "at" to mean "next to" or "beside".
- In British English, you say that someone is "at school" or "at university".
- "Can" and "could" are modal auxiliary verbs. There is no -s in the third person singular. Questions and negatives are made without "do".
- "By" and "with" can both be used to say how somebody does something, but there is an important difference. We use "by" when we talk about about an action -- what we do to get a result. We use "with" when we talk about a tool or other object -- what we use to get a result.
- "It's time" can be followed by an infinitive.
Please give me the source of these examples of grammar rules.
I must know where they come from before I can go on with the discussion.
I don't see why you must know this, but I quoted the rules from Swan "Practical English Usage" and Collins COBUILD English Usage (2001).
Please tell me how I can see those rules in those sources.
I need to see the full context.
I suspect that you have taken the quotes out of their context
to make them appear ridiculous.
I don't believe that they are so much ridiculous in the places
where they are actually used.
Why is the context relevant?
You wanted me to give examples of grammar rules. I gave you examples of what I consider to be grammar rules. Now you should have an idea of what I call "grammar rules".
It doesn't matter what the sources are. I could have invented these examples myself.
I can't help you find the passages which contain these sentences in Swan or COBUILD Usage -- I simply opened the books in random places and copied some sentences.
You use the term "grammar rules" in an Antimoon articles.
You claim that "grammar rules" are useless.
You condemn English classes for teaching grammar rules.
I wanted to understand what it is that you condemn.
But I still don't know if classes contain that which you condemn.
I doubt that English classes contain "grammar rules" as you depict them.
I doubt your whole argument against "grammar rules".
Now I need your examples of "grammar rules" taught in classes.
Your quoted examples are irrelevant from the viewpoint of discussing English classes.
If a student asks question with another student as follow :
S1 : will you come to meet with me tomorrow at the same place?
S2 : This student doesn't know grammar rules.He replied i went to meet with you tomorrow.(If grammar structure are wrong in some sentences but they are converting main theme. ) would those sentences would be correct in english language.(one student had to take answer in future but another one replied in past tense).
If a person doesnt know which verb or auxilary verb have to use in what sense -he will be able to use wrong verbs and expression with wrong situation.So for this account we must learn english grammar rules.
If a person [doesn't] know which verb or auxilary verb [he has] to use in what sense - he will be able to use wrong verbs and [expressions] [in] [the]wrong situation. So for this [reason] we must learn [English] grammar rules.
>>>>>
You don't have to know a RULE to build correct English sentences. You can do it INTUITIVELY (based on the correct English sentences you have read or heard).
I know very few rules of English grammar.
See
http://www.antimoon.com/how/reading.htm for an explanation of "grammar intuition".
I bought a Norwegian grammar book.
I'm going to examine the subject of grammar rules.
I'll see how useful the book is for my Norwegian learning.
I want to answer the following questions:
- What are grammar rules? (definition, examples)
- Are grammar rules useful for learning a foreign language?
- How can a learner benefit from a grammar book?
http://www.antimoon.com/norsk/reports/grammarbook.htm
Hai all readers.
I would like to say 'Selamat Hari Raya Idul Fitri', 'Merry Christmas' and 'Happy New Year' to you.
I hope in the New Year all we are successful.
Thank you.
Coming back to English grammar...
In my opinion antimoon articles say this about grammar rules:
there are many rules, but often we aren't aware that we use them. Sometimes we don't need to call some structure "a rule", we simply add it to our memory. We gain new structures while reading, and then we simply begin to use it, without checking in any grammar book what kind of rule it is.
to Michal:
>>>>
But I still don't know if classes contain that which you condemn.
I doubt that English classes contain "grammar rules" as you depict them.
I doubt your whole argument against "grammar rules".
Now I need your examples of "grammar rules" taught in classes.
Your quoted examples are irrelevant from the viewpoint of discussing English classes.
>>>>
I'll give you an example from a modern ESL textbook: "Workout Advanced" by Paul Radley and Kathy Burke, published by Nelson English Language Teaching. The textbook was used in an English class I attended at a reputable language school in England.
Unit 4. Grammar: Adjectives
3. Order of adjectives.
When two or more adjectives are used before a noun, the adjectives follow a certain order:
opinion adjectives: general/specific
descriptive adjectives: size/age/shape/colour/nationality/material
Example: They bought a lovely, stylish, large, old, rectangular, brown, English oak table.
Unit 4. Practice (next page)
5. Order of adjectives
Use the adjectives in the correct order before each noun to make noun phrases.
Example: beach - white, sandy, soft
a soft, white, sandy beach
hotel - modern, large, expensive
climate - sunny, warm, Mediterranean
water - blue, clear, clean
restaurant - international, open-air, clean
rooms - spacious, comfortable, twin-bedded
MY COMMENTS:
The textbook clearly presents a grammar rule for ordering adjectives ("size/age/shape/colour/nationality/material"). Then it gives only two examples. After that, learners are expected to do an exercise.
Obviously, they cannot do it using their intuition (what intuition can develop from seeing two examples?). The textbook wants them to classify the adjectives into one of the groups ("size", "age", etc.), and then order them according to the rule.
I'm not saying the grammar rule is bad in itself. Maybe it can even be helpful in some way. But it cannot be the ONLY way to learn about the order of adjectives!
I think the textbook is pathetic. The two examples won't produce any intuition. The grammar rule is hard to remember and hard to use. Any learner will forget it very soon. The exercise is merely an opportunity to make mistakes and reinforce them.
>>>>>>>>>
I'm not saying the grammar rule is bad in itself. Maybe it can even be helpful in some way. But it cannot be the ONLY way to learn about the order of adjectives!
Would you please tell us the another way of learning about the order of adjectives?
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I took English classes at local English center and it was located near my home.The American grammar books were used to teach student learners.The books contained so many options such as Get together ,Interaction,Listening,vocabulary and puzzle games. Grammar books are helpful to teach English to some extents but not well enough to make learners perfect.Learning english can come out by learning one'self.
I completed my 6 month course of Intermediate level but I feel that it doesnt work well.I think that i have forgotten the usage of so many grammar rules because i could not remember all usage of grammar rules in my mind.even though i made 7 to 10 my own sentences of a particular grammar structure during book excercises.
I have just understood the main source of improving written and spoken English by reading English books.It is the best source to learn English effective.(Before joining to Antimoon as a regular client i never gave consideration to read books in enormous amounts).Now I'm trying to engage with English books as much as possible.
I'm writing this letter without applying any grammar rules and structure.Only my mouth are delivering sentences even i am not fully sure that this parapgraph is completely written in good grammar.or is it well enough to understand for the Antimoon's clients.?
I persoanlly feel that Only reading does not give you the full source of learning English.You can not get access to learn slang words because they are not used in the books.and you know the English playwriter shakespeare used to write slang words in his novel.Slang words are also a part of English.
Saturday, November 24, 2001, 21:38 GMT