English classes are bad for your English?

In reference to http://www.antimoon.com/other/englishclass.htm, a reader of Antimoon wrote to us:

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Dear English Learners,
Contrary to the comments of WHY ENGLISH CLASSES AREN'T GOOD. They are, and certainly better than nothing. Any way to increase your ability is a GOOD way. This includes actual friends, TV, pen pals, all the above. Some classes are better than others, but any class is better than none.
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(1) You can pick up incorrect English in class.
(2) You can learn three words in class as opposed to the alternative
of learning seventeen words on your own at the same time.
(3) You can read one paragraph from a textbook in class
as opposed to the alternative of reading a whole chapter in a book.

My point is that English classes may not be the most efficient way of learning English.
I wish to turn people's attention to the possibility of learning on one's own.
I also wish to warn learners of the possibility of learning bad English
from one's teacher or from other students. (Some teachers are bad at English.)

I need to discuss this subject thoroughly.
Please correct me whenever my thoughts go astray.

My point is that about your this topic.English classes are not much efficient of learning English is not make any sense.
Lets suppose - We have two learners of English one goes to Institute for taking English classes where he is engaged with other learners and has an huge opportunity to speak English with them alongwith learning new phrases,expressions and grammar rules.He is getting something instead of nothing and other student stays at home and never knows about any grammar rules,phrases and expression.Although he doesn't know how to speak English and learn.He is none.He is just reading books - watching movie channels.But somehow both students went to University one day and
had a chance to speak with English speakers.One was able to convert his messages and giving answers who went to insititute daily and took classes.
Because during conversation with English speakers he had no hesitation but the other guy who never takes English classes and stayed at home and following similar instructions just like you are telling. His mouth did not work properly to joint words together because he never speaks english with anybody.So point is that Learning speaking comes out only way of Practicing ,practicing and practicing.so this opprtuinity students can avail in the class only instead of staying at home.If I make any wrong point ,please pinpoint it.

ESL Student from Pakistan.

(Your message was very hard to understand.)

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He is just reading books [and] watching movie channels. (...) His mouth did not work properly to [join?] words together because he never speaks [English] with anybody. So [the] point is that [learning to speak requires practice, practice, and practice]. [Students should practice in class] instead of staying at home.
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1. You made up a story about two students. One of them reads books and watches movies instead of going to English classes. In your story, he doesn't learn to speak English. But THIS IS JUST YOUR STORY. I could write a similar story -- one in which the student who reads books ends up speaking great English. But I don't think that would be interesting, would it?

I think you are underestimating the power of reading!


2. Of course learning to speak requires some practice. We're not telling people to avoid speaking! We only suggest that learners should read a lot in English before they open their mouths. We also suggest they should speak carefully and avoid mistakes.

Yes, you can practice speaking in English classes. But normally you don't get to speak a lot (there are many people in class), and there may be better ways to practice. If you don't have the opportunity to practice speaking, you can sign up for conversation classes (where all you do is speak).

By the way, we're not saying that English classes give you nothing. We're only saying they are less effective than other activities. We point out their specific disadvantages in our article.

reply to tom :

I'm learning English and I can make a few mistakes during writing a paragraph and I'm very sorry to say that my paragraph was difficult to you.
Pardon me!

Asad:


All "thinking" Americans would be as delighted as I am to help anyone in Pakistan who is learning English right now. I'm pleased that you undertook to send a message to this forum and I think your English is very good. You certainly communicate your meaning very well. (Your English is much better than my Urdu, my Punjabi, my Sindhi, or my Pashto... More Americans should understand the languages AND THE CULTURES of Pakistan, AND OF AFGHANISTAN...) I plan to offer my comments later at this forum about the alleged "harmful" effect of classes. For the time being, let me assist you by giving you a modification of your message which you can study. (Realize that your English grammar and syntax may be "OK," but the style may not be standard American style. For that reason I'll give you two "modifications." First I'll TRY to make no changes in your style at all, and I'll only focus on your grammar, your vocabulary, and your syntax. Then I'll also change your style. Of course, you understand that it's impossible to make no stylistic changes. You also know from your work in your first language that writing is never really finished. It can always be improved, unless it's poetry...) "Here we go":

My point is that your argument that English classes are not an efficient way of learning English doesn't make any sense.

Let's suppose we have two learners of English: One goes to a school for English classes in which he is engaged with other learners and in which he has a huge opportunity to speak English. He also is able to learn new phrases, expressions, and grammar rules. He is getting something instead of nothing but the other student stays at home and never knows about any grammar rules, phrases, or expression. He doesn't know how to speak English or to learn, either. He's doing nothing but reading books and watching movie channels.

Eventually both students went to the University one day and they both
had a chance to converse with English speakers. The one who took daily classes in the English school was able to understand what was said to him and to give answers. He didn't hesitate during conversation with speakers of English, but the other guy who never took English classes and who stayed at home following recommendations such as you're giving found that his mouth wouldn't even work properly enough for him to be able to put words together because he never spoke English with anybody. So my point is that learning speech comes only with practice, practice, and more practice. This is an opportunity students can only have in a class and not at home.

Now I'll re-write this message as if I wrote it myself in American English, which is my native language:

I'm afraid I simply can't agree with your argument that taking English classes is an inefficient way to learn English. (To say "Your argument doesn't make any sense" is a bit "inflammatory," and we'd disagree more politely!)

Let's suppose we have two learners of English: One takes English classes at a school in which he actively engages with other learners in conversations. This gives him an excellent opportunity to USE English by actually speaking in class, with the assistance of an instructor. He's also learning new vocabulary and grammar, because his instructor is a competent professional who is able to guide the students expertly. The instructor provides additional vocabulary which relates to the specific words and phrases which the students are learning. He knows what vocabulary is too advanced for them, and he knows the vocabulary so well that he can give the students superb and very detailed advice about its meaning and its usage, not to mention its pronunciation. He guides them at length about subtle differences in the meaning of similar words, and in the different qualities of the words, so the students won't use them inappropriately. He teaches them which words are used as slang, which have vulgar connotations or double meanings, which are erudite terms which are used only in the most formal speech, which are informal, etc. In addition to this he teaches them grammar, which they must know if they wish to use the language correctly. Because he's a competent professional, he teaches them with skill and with an appropriate plan of instruction, so they're not "wandering aimlessly." He knows how to measure what they've learned, and he's experienced in the use of the best teaching techniques which will help them learn most efficiently. He knows when to continue to help them with particular problems, when to give them new information, and when to review what they've already studied. He teaches them with the same skill, and with the same sense of professional responsibility as a surgeon displays when he's performing surgery. The student at the school is certainly getting his money's worth.

The other student stays at home and learns only the new vocabulary and grammar which he teaches himself. The students in the class have the benefit of a teacher who's a native speaker and a trained professional teacher. The teacher has dedicated his llfe to teaching English. He knows the language fluently and he loves it. He spends most of his time thinking about language instruction when he isn't actually teaching or continuing his professional training. The student at home is teaching himself. He knows nothing about the language and he knows nothing about teaching. Most of the time he's hopelessly confused and demoralized, because he has no one to help him, let alone an expert instructor. He continues to battle the same problems which the students in the class overcame in the first few weeks with the help of the instructor. He wanders around aimlessly, because he's not able to plan an appropriate course of instruction for himself. Much of the additional vocabulary which he could be learning passes him by, because he doesn't even know it exists. Yes, his dictionary often tells him synonyms, but he doesn't know the subtle nuances of meaning and the connotations which distinguish these similar words from each other. He doesn't even realize that he's MISUSING much of the new vocabulary which he thinks he's "teaching" himself!

Eventually both students wind up together at the University one day and they both have a chance to converse with English speakers. The one who took daily classes in the English school is able to understand what's said to him and to give answers. He doesn't hesitate during conversation with other speakers of English, but the other guy who never took English classes and who stayed at home following such recommendations as you're giving found that his mouth failed him. He couldn't even put words together properly because he never spoke English with anybody. So my point is that learning speech comes only with practice, practice, and more practice. This is an opportunity which students can only have in a class and which they simply can't get at home.

(Oh my, Ahmed! What have I done?! It looks like I've added my own thoughts to yours, haven't I! Oh well, we agree, don't we? Hah!)

I'm very happy that you're studying my language and I wish you the best of good luck in your efforts.

Jeff Hook
New Jersey, USA

(I live in a beautiful rural section of New Jersey, which is near Princeton University, but I was close enough to NYC to be able to taste the smoke in the air on the eleventh of September...)

Jeff hook :

you seemed to be a very interesting and fun loving guy.I can only say welcome to here.I have no comments about your English because you are too cool to use words according to the right situation.I guess you are a literature student or perhaps you are teaching somewhere else.And what your paragraph was showing to me is that you like to take challenge and want to beat anyone who want to be your opponents.Isn't it interesting view?

Thank you so much that you gave me those two helpful modifications.I agree with you that my grammar and syntax is okay but the stylish os writing is concerned is not up to the mark just like Americans have.I believe myself I will be able to speak English near Americans.

You have corrected my that paragraph and now it has become a more challenge and interesting for Tom who has written my story is JUST MY STORY.We are waiting what will he comment on that?

You pointed my mistakes and I hope I will overcome those mistakes.

It is very good to hear that you are belonged to the USA and living in new Jersy which is very near to Ny City.

New york was very famous when It had twin towers and now it has become much more famous for not having those towers.It has good history and bad history.I condemn that brutal act of Terrorist.

I wanna know have you ever vistied to princeton university?

Any how ,I was really surprized to read about my country languages.You have very good knowledge about Asia.You know i have some American penpals over internet even they don't what is our native language.
And you are the only american was being passed through infront of my eyes who mentioned many Pakistani languages.

And what I think about your language - It's an international langugae.All internaltional bookes are published into English text.So To get more knowledge i must learn your native language.

My elder brother ,brother -in-law and my elder sister are living in the USA.
My elder brother was used to live 4 years in CA after that he moved around so much in th Usa just like a to and fro motion.he enjoyed so much to move here and there.During 5 1/2 years he has seen Los Angles,Iowa,Texas,wisconsin,verginia,Dallas,Millwakee,Houstan,and now he is Florida.He is a radio frequency Engineer.He designed mobile and wireless structures - and also used to work on cable network on the mountains near long beach where he had his residebtial area.

One year ago my mom and dad visited California and especially my mom enjoyed so much to live In california.She spent one year over there and saw many locations.She told me that "California is California- and no state is just like California- Very sunny weather which she likes the most .She likes that sort of weather in which she does get not very cold or not very hot.She doesnt know to speak English but also bought eating stuffs at shops.Just spoke onlly 2 words or most of the time she showed to express body gestures what she wants to get.For instance,she was walking and saw a hamburger show at the smae she had some pennies so whe wanted to eat burgers so she went on that shop and reached to lady counter what she said " one burger".

My mom enjoyed so much when she saw differnt machines on the streets where she got his money in the form of currency.When she crossed roads she told me that she saw a big picture of a man who was mentioning now yoo could part the road or not.She had a very wonderful experience over there.She had a plan to visit again but due to the present she has delayed his previous plan.And I also get an information that the life is going on in the Usa or Ny ?

One day I will take a trip of the Usa or newyork but in present very difficult to me because of my poor English.
I would like to know that how newyork jersy looks like?
this is not a forum to discuss personal matters and questions but i would say sorry to the antimoon management.Anyway I can investiage about your city in your private e-mail.

Mohammed Asad Khan
A computer student
At National - Fast University,
Karachi/Pakistan

I don't quite agree with your opinion. It could be that English classes aren't very good, but I still think that thay can give more than being alone or study on one's own. Of course in tis sense, we have to think of a good class. I mean that there is an english teacher, there is a curriculum and syllabus. If those three things don't exist, then can we say that it is an english class. I'm afraid not. Your comment that (some) english teachers are not very good, it depends. Isn't there any requirement for someone to be an english teacher? Do youthink that being able to speak english or having returned from an english speaking country directly qualify someone to be a good teacher? i'm afraid not. That's for this momment. If you want to contact me, my e-mail is hartonoupb@yahoo.com.
Thanks

Language Classes CAN be bad for your language learning.... if you have a bad teacher, or a teacher with bad English. If there is a good tape method (such as Pimsleur) for learning English from your language, you will be better of using that than going to classes.

If you can find good classes with a small number of students run by a good teacher who is a native speaker of English, then the chances are you will learn English well in these classes: better than you would on your own.

You need to speak English to be able to speak English : private study that doesn't get you speaking will not teach you to speak! (though it might make you better at reading and writing ... but you will lack confidence and good accent in speaking).

I agree with Neil Gratton. My impresion from orginal article is, that you suppouse, that there are only bad classes and teachers.

To: Mohammed Asad Khan
Despite I'v never been in the USA and my English is bad I estimate that Khan written English is better than 10 % of US inhabitants.

One interesting point that I think of, when I read the Mohammed Asad Khan's letter:

To be use a language with fluency (to be fluent), a person does not have to be perfect.

Mohammed Asad Khans' message can be easily understood, except for a few phrases, IMHO. Of course, you can see that the 'style' is not necessarily that of a "native" speaker of English. (I don't want to get into the debate between British English and American English here. :-) )

But this statement about fluency is very important. If one can express what they want to say, this is the goal, it seems to me. After being understood, more study is always possible. We can all strive to be better.

But some people are afraid to try another language, whether it
be English, Russian, or Arabic, etc. If a person is not afraid to speak and write English, then they can learn much more quickly. This can only be a good thing.

Doug
Bourne, Massachusetts
-USA