Good question for good native speakers

Clark   Monday, August 04, 2003, 21:42 GMT
In German and Dutch, can one end sentences in a preposition?
Some homeless passerby   Tuesday, August 05, 2003, 21:01 GMT
English. Sheesh. Too many rules. I shoulda learned Polish for easier pronunciation...
mike   Friday, August 08, 2003, 14:31 GMT
To Native Person

I think you hit the nail right on the head when you suggested some people should throw their grammar books out their windows. It seems to me some people simply won't understand that grammar rules are created day by day and that it's us who do it. I think we should start focusing on descriptive rather than presriptive grammar at last. Don't you think that maybe due to such a widespread use of prepositions at the end of a sentence we finally ought to come to terms with the trend rather than try to sound more aloof than we are by such sentences as the Churchill's sarcastic remark.
mike   Friday, August 08, 2003, 14:34 GMT
aloof = maybe lofty would be better here*
Antonio   Friday, August 08, 2003, 17:37 GMT
I don´t think the normans caused the ´no-ending´ of a sentence with a preposition. German doesn´t allow one to end a sentence with a prep either. Also, both grammatically and colloquially, people don´t end their phrases with prepositions.
I´m only aware of Swedish as a language to behave as English does. But I disagree when people say it is a wrong thing to use a preposition to end a sentence with... ;) because one of the beauties of English is the prep. at the end.
Should you be writing a formal letter, I think you should also use the grammar assigned as "correct ( not RIGHT ) for the given case".
Simon   Monday, August 11, 2003, 08:39 GMT
You have separable verbs in Dutch. If the separable element is a preposition then it can come at the end.
Clark   Monday, August 11, 2003, 09:00 GMT
Let's learn French: (I took this from the newest Antimoon update, and changed to fit my needs ;-)

Three biggest challenges facing an French learner

1. Developing a passion for learning French

All French learners would like to speak French well. They are excited at the idea of being able to communicate in French fluently. However, they usually don't care about the learning process itself. For most learners, learning Fench is a duty — something that they have to, but don't want to do. They don't see pleasure in learning French.

In short, most learners would like to speak French well but don't like to be learning French. This is the first and biggest problem facing a French learner, because a person who doesn't like to learn French will not learn it well. If you don't love French, French won't love you back!

If you want to become a successful learner, you need to like the learning process itself. You need to treat time spent on French as time for pleasure and relaxation. For example, you need to enjoy:

•reading French sentences and thinking about their structure
•learning new words from a dictionary
•writing a correct French sentence by consulting dictionaries, grammar guides, and the Web
•practicing the pronunciation of French sounds and words

Ideally, learning French should be your hobby. You should think of yourself as an French Learner — a person who has chosen learning French as one of their favorite activities.

2. Making the first change to one's life

The decision to learn French requires changes in your life. For example, deciding that one will read a book in French for 30 minutes every day and keeping to that decision. It's very difficult to make a small, but permanent change to your life, especially if learning French doesn't seem "fun".

However, learners should remember that studying French for 15 minutes every day gives you much better results than studying for a whole day once a month.

3. Making further changes to one's life

While the first change is the most difficult, each subsequent one is hard, too. A lot of learners take the first step (e.g. they start reading a book in French every day) and stop there. They do not engage in other French-building activities.

A good learner will have a set of activities (reading, watching TV, practicing pronunciation, listening to recordings, etc.) and choose from that set according to his or her mood. One activity is not good enough, because (1) you get bored more quickly, and (2) it gives you a range of language skills that is typically too narrow. For example, reading in French can't improve your pronunciation or listening comprehension, although it can improve your grammar, vocabulary, reading comprehension, and writing skills.)
Simon   Monday, August 11, 2003, 10:02 GMT
Another good tip is to think of all the money your multilingualism could make you... and (for men) the women it might impress.
Tom   Monday, August 11, 2003, 10:51 GMT
Hey Clark, I think I'll start a bunch of sites for learners of French, German, Spanish, etc. just by doing Search & Replace on Antimoon articles. :-)