Pronouncing TH

Jamie On   Monday, September 08, 2003, 19:16 GMT
Ryan, you don't know what you're talking about. Both my parents NEVER pronounce THs unless they really have to (talking to foreigners with poor English maybe, in order to be understood) and they spoke this way around me all the time. I never drop my THs because I know that this is the standard usage (from TV, radio, people outside the family).... Trust me, dropping THs is not that common in Britain, you would never hear it on the news for example and to most people it sounds very "vulgar". It will never die out!

Juan, read my earlier post, no English-speakers have any real problem making that sound and it is not like in Spanish where z / ce, ci "seseo" and "ceceo" are valid alternatives... I actually prefer the Castellano lisp to the S sound, that's what I always use! It makes Spanish sound so much more unique.

Furthur, it makes English more unique and therefore it should (and without doubt will) stay for a long time yet. I'd bet money on it.
Clark   Monday, September 08, 2003, 19:20 GMT
I like you Jaime On. I agree with you that the "th" sound will not go away in English, and it is uncommon in Britain to drop this sound (as it is in most English-speaking areas).

And whenever I speak Spanish, which is fairly often, I always speak with a Castilian accent ("z" and "ce-/ci-" = "th" as in "thin"). Sometimes I get strange looks, especially from the Mexicans, but I have an Agentinian friend who understands me perfectly.
Jamie On   Monday, September 08, 2003, 20:42 GMT
It's weird that you would get funny looks, doesn't the whole world get Castillian TV/radio/music... I would've thought that was the case. Well I had another thought; in Ireland I don't think anyone says the THs, they use a d/t sound instead and that's considered standard in that country.
Clark   Monday, September 08, 2003, 23:20 GMT
No, we do not get Castilian TV unless you pay for it. But here in California, there are a lot of Mexican people, so there are a lot of Spanish-speaking networks based in the US. And a lot of the networks are not even Mexican, but south American; so it is nice to hear their accents instead of the Mexican accent (no, I do not hate Mexicans, but I really do not like their accent).

As for the "th" in Ireland, it depends where you go, and the socioeconomics come into play I would imagine. The more education or money you have, the better you will speak.

In the Cranberries' CD, "To the Faithful Departed," you can hear Dolores O'Riordan, the lead singer, say, "tink" instead of think (I think it was this album; maybe it was a different one). Anyways, she is Irish, and she did not pronouce her "th" until later, so my guess would be that she changed her accent as her and her band got more famous.

But I would say that most native English-speakers can pronounce the "th" sound without difficulty. But when it comes to going down to the local pub, sports bar, coffee house, and talking with friends, the "th" of SOME, not every group, will not be pronounced differently, or not at all. The main groups that I can see this happening are maybe some Irish people (especially in the Gaeltachd areas), and among some of the black community in America.
Alex.   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 00:52 GMT
About the Castilian and other accents as The Mexican...
It is the same that happen with the British and American accent...

The people who crossed the Ocean and started to live in America, wanted to make a difference, like a gesture of independence of their origins. What better way than the accent.

By the way, I do not like the American accent nor the Castilian.
But for English I prefer the British accent, and for Spanish my Mexican accent. It is ironic.

Difference of tastes and opinions ...OK.

"Between the individuals, like between the nations: The respect to the other people's right, is peace".
Benito Juarez (Mexican President. 1806-1872).
L8R.
Alex.
Alex.   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 01:00 GMT
About the Castilian and other accents as The Mexican...
It is the same that happen with the British and American accent...

The people who crossed the Ocean and started to live in America, wanted to make a difference, like a gesture of independence of their origins. What better way than the accent.

By the way, I do not like the American accent nor the Castilian.
But for English I prefer the British accent, and for Spanish my Mexican accent. It is ironic.

Difference of tastes and opinions ...OK.

"Between the individuals, like between the nations: The respect to the other people's right, is peace".
Benito Juarez (Mexican President. 1806-1872).
L8R.
Alex.
Alex.   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 01:02 GMT
About the Castilian and other accents as The Mexican...
It is the same that happen with the British and American accent...

The people who crossed the Ocean and started to live in America, wanted to make a difference, like a gesture of independence of their origins. What better way than the accent.

By the way, I do not like the American accent nor the Castilian.
But for English I prefer the British accent, and for Spanish my Mexican accent. It is ironic.

Difference of tastes and opinions ...OK.

"Between the individuals, like between the nations: The respect to the other people's right, is peace".
Benito Juarez (Mexican President. 1806-1872).
L8R.
Alex.
Ryan   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 03:47 GMT
Jamie, you must have had either somebody teach you the /th/ sound, or learned it from watching tv/listening to the radio, or you would not have picked up the sound. Most people don't learn how to speak from their parents anyway but from the environment around them. American parents who give birth to and raise children in Britain will have children who speak with some kind of British accent, not an American one.

More people drop the /th/ sound today than used to in England. This is well-documented by linguists. I don't think historically most linguistic trends reverse, so it is very likely the /th/ sound will disappear in England. However, it might just disappear in certain regions as the trend in linguistics is that regional "dialects" increase as people try to assert their regional identity over other regions (ie people in Birmingham purposely talking differently than people in London and vice versa).

Ryan
Clark   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 04:35 GMT
I have to say that I have no clue where you are getting this from, Ryan.
Henry   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 04:41 GMT
I have to say that Spanish speakers from Spain sound coarse compared to those in South America eg. Chile.
Juan   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 04:55 GMT
Clark, it doesn't surprise me that you get strange looks. The majority of the Spanish speaking world don't have a lisp (or even know there are people that have one, since in American Spanish it doesn't exist) so its no wonder that some Latinos might be stunned by your funky pronounciation. Anyway, its your choice I guess you think its more correct or proper to speak like the Spaniards do. Each to their own. But I have to say that most people express similar opinions to that of Henry. Spaniards seem to a very thick, rough accent that's not very attractive at all in my opinion and acquaintances. And they also have that Jota "J" guttural sound that cracks me up. It sounds like they are just about to spit. Its very funny! Do you do that guttural sound too Clark?
Jim   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 06:05 GMT
I don't believe that the "th" sounds are in any danger of disappearing from English. Regional dialects in the British Isles might pronounce the "th"s as [t]/[d] or [f]/[v] ... who knows, you might even get [s]/[z] ... but I can't imagine it's ever becoming "standard". By "standard" I mean "the Queen's English", "RP", "BBC accent", "what you'll find in the Oxford Dictionary", etc.

Outside the British Isles you'll never find this (except amongst children, those from the British Isles and those with speech impedaments). Pronouncing "th" as [t]/[d], [f]/[v] or [s]/[z] would be considered incorrect. British/Irish English is influenced by other dialects. The "th" sounds are here to stay.
Jim   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 06:16 GMT
When I wrote "I can't imagine it's ever becoming 'standard'." I meant that I can't imagine it's ever becoming "standard" British/Irish English. I'm not saying that other dialects are "non-standard". I was just writing about the "standard" in the context of the British Isles.

Of course, I don't believe in the idea of a "standard dialect". Hence the use of inverted commas. The idea is much akin to the idea that there exists a master race. The word "standard", however, was a convenient one to use to express what I meant.
Clark   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 07:43 GMT
Juan, yes, my accent is 100% Castilian. I pronounce the "z/ce-/ci-" as a "th" like in the English word "thin," and the "j/ge-/gi-" as in the Scottish "loch" or German "Bach." Also, the "s" is very thik. It is almost like the "sh" in English, but not quite. In Portuguese of Portugal, they have the "sh" sound, and in the Spanish of Spain, the "s" is close to the sound the Portuguese make.

I was talking with an Argentinian lady who lives at the bottom of my street, and I said, "yo recibo..." (ray-thee-boh) and she looked at me with a blank stare. So I had to switch my pronounciation (to "ray-see-boh").

The only accents that I can speak in are Mexican and Castilian. I can pronounce words like the Argentinians with their "ella" (ay-shah [Chileans "ay-zhay"]) or the Cubans with their "voy al e-tadio para ver lo equipo juegan" (instead of "voy al estadio para ver los equipos juegan"); but the actual accent is hard for me to do. Now that I think about it, the Cuban accent is not that difficult.

Whenever a Spanish movie comes on, I always get excited and sit down to watch it. I love their accents!
aj   Tuesday, September 09, 2003, 14:55 GMT
There is not a chance of the /th/ sound dying out in Britain, the vast majority of people pronounce it properly, and most circles frown upon pronouncing it as /f/.

If anything it is a passing fad where mainstream picks up a regional accent (anybody remember when even Blue Peter presenters were pronouncing hard /g/'s on words such as 'thing') and in 5 years time it'll have receded back to the regions it originated.

But there will always be some people such as myself who cannot pronounce everything - my mother used to ring my neck every time my lisp was evident, and although I sorted /s/'s, I'll probably never manage to pronounce words containing 'ths' properly.