English is just a minor Germanic dialect

Simon   Tuesday, October 07, 2003, 12:08 GMT
I think the Germanic languages have always been minor. Nobody really likes them except the speakers themselves. Where they have become important it is because with the power of countries speaking them, they have made themselves respected.
Antonio   Tuesday, October 07, 2003, 12:25 GMT
Perhaps Hythloday has been a bit unfortunate with his saying, just that.
English is indeed a germanic dialect, but this is an extremely ´narrow´ definition for it. It is not only a dialect, but also a language. English is very different from other germanic dialects. Dutch would more easily be called a dialect rather than English.
I disagree when Hythloday says ´few foreign words thrown in´. English has today´s composition because of its history and we should not take part siding those who have been saying that English is just a germanic language with some Latin inserted in it. English has such a heavy Latin presence because it is too a Latin language. Many disagree, and keep hitting on that ´anglo-saxon´ Vitorian Crap.
We have gone through many threads on this subject before Hythloday comes.
Should one consider the verbal system as the factor which will instantly classify a language, I would be now inclined to define Portuguese as a Germanic language.
Simon   Tuesday, October 07, 2003, 12:30 GMT
No, it is not a Latin language. Why the fear of "Germanic" as if it meant white people fascism or something. There is no fear of labelling a language as Latin, Slavic, or Celtic.

English has evolved but slowly and has never just broken off with its roots.

Fear of a Germanic planet?
Simon   Tuesday, October 07, 2003, 12:50 GMT
Personally, I think it is the large number of Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans who try to appropriate the English language and attach it to their cultures. Therefore, the Celtic element is played up and exaggerated for the Irish-Americans and the Latin (i.e. Old Italian) roots are played up for the Italian-Americans.

Why all the fuss, anyway. Saying that English is a Germanic language is descriptive and not defining. It helps us to understand why the language is like it is.
sam   Tuesday, October 07, 2003, 16:18 GMT
English belongs to the Germanic branch of the Indo-European family of languages.
Clark   Tuesday, October 07, 2003, 17:36 GMT
I was just thinking about something, and I have even been guilty of saying this before.

If one says that English is a minor dialect of German, one is saying that Dutch is a minor dialect of German as well. A more appropriate title for this thread would have been, "English is just a minor dialect of Dutch."

But there inlies the problem; English has evolved and the politics surrounding the use of the English language have changed. What would have happened if King James III would have made the official language of England, the Church of England, etc Scots? If the people of England started speaking Scots then Scots would have eventually become the language of power and eventually the international language, and then there would be the debatres about whether the English language is a dialect of a seperate language from Scots.

So no, English is not a minor dialect of any language. I think that dialects are best defined politically (like most languages).
Clark   Tuesday, October 07, 2003, 17:44 GMT
Politics are themainthing we look at. I think we should sperate language from politics, but that will ever happen (and I am not quite sure how one could do this).
Jim   Wednesday, October 08, 2003, 05:45 GMT
Simon thinks "the Germanic languages have always been minor." but English is a Germanic language and of huge international importance. I think you're wrong there Simon.

Simon writes "Nobody really likes them except the speakers themselves." I like your style Simon but, just between you and I, we know that's not the case. There are a whole bunch of folk ever so keen on English, don't ask me why.

Simon also says "Where they have become important it is because with the power of countries speaking them, they have made themselves respected." Ain't it the same case for Greek, Latin, French, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic or any other important or respected language?

Simon demands "As the US's linguistic homeland, I think we deserve a higher status in American affections, perhaps comparable to Ireland or Israel." Who is this bloke? Where does he get off? Comparing Olde England to Isreal, indeed. How do you think poor Isreal would fair if it had to share its beloved American affection with the Poms?
Hythloday   Wednesday, October 08, 2003, 08:11 GMT
The English come from England, and our language is English. (If you have a look at the genealogy of languages, you will see that English is related to Frisian, which in turn is a variety of West Germanic.) The French come from France, and their language is French, ad infinitum. The ......... come from the United States of America, and their language is ........... (please fill in the blanks if you know the answer.)
Simon   Wednesday, October 08, 2003, 08:39 GMT
Jim says:

Simon thinks "the Germanic languages have always been minor." but English is a Germanic language and of huge international importance. I think you're wrong there Simon.
-> Ok I edited this first point so many times I left out key info. I meant until English or even German.

Simon writes "Nobody really likes them except the speakers themselves." I like your style Simon but, just between you and I, we know that's not the case. There are a whole bunch of folk ever so keen on English, don't ask me why.
-> Many of those people are not learning it for fun, like one might learn Italian, but because the employment market they wish to succeed in demands it.

Simon also says "Where they have become important it is because with the power of countries speaking them, they have made themselves respected." Ain't it the same case for Greek, Latin, French, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic or any other important or respected language?
-> Yes but Dante (or Ariosto) thought that French was great and that was purely aesthetic. Maybe you are right, it would explain why constructed languages are a dead end.

Simon demands "As the US's linguistic homeland, I think we deserve a higher status in American affections, perhaps comparable to Ireland or Israel." Who is this bloke? Where does he get off? Comparing Olde England to Isreal, indeed. How do you think poor Isreal would fair if it had to share its beloved American affection with the Poms?
-> Ha ha ha.
Antonio   Wednesday, October 08, 2003, 12:13 GMT
Clark:

You´ve got a point. If English is more related to Frisian ( sort of Dutch, innit? :), so English should be a minor dialect of Dutch!
Why people can´t take that as, at least, plausible? Is Dutch that bad ( except for the British ´had to be Dutch!´ bias ) ?
Furthermore, German isn´t the main language of the ´ancient germanic IE branch´of languages. It is just another DI-A-LECT of that very branch. That makes it fall into the same category! German simply kept the name of the family!
It´s like ´I´m a Drummond, but I haven´t the Drummond name so only those who have it are TRUE Drummonds and the only ones there are´.
Following the pattern one might say that English is a minor dialect of Gothic because Gothic is much much older and so much more of a ´original´representative of that branch.

If Britain´s history had been different, we might be speaking some Celt or norse dialect today.
Simon   Wednesday, October 08, 2003, 12:25 GMT
I think the reality of English is not that it is minor but that when looked at as a whole, it diverges most from the group. But 'minor' my a***/a**, this is the most powerful language humanity has ever known.
sam   Wednesday, October 08, 2003, 14:13 GMT
I think one who knows French, German, Dutch and some Greek can understand English language very well.
Jamie On   Wednesday, October 08, 2003, 14:15 GMT
Simon - lol.
Clark   Wednesday, October 08, 2003, 16:05 GMT
Hythloday, there is not one Native American language; try somehting like 1,000 or more. But now, there are only a handful of those spoken, and then there are even fewer of those languages that have speakers who use the language everyday.