Has the word "person" a gender?

Lavoisel   Friday, April 09, 2004, 08:49 GMT
Hello all,

I have recently come across the sentence: "If a person does more than HER share [...]".

Is the word "person" always feminine?

Thanks.
mjd   Friday, April 09, 2004, 08:53 GMT
No, it's probably just the author trying to undo the sexism that has occured in discourse throughout much of history. Generally "his" was used in the past, but these days many women scorn this.

You can always write "his or her" if you wish to take the neutral ground.
Lavoisel   Saturday, April 10, 2004, 13:36 GMT
Thank you very much!
Adam   Sunday, April 11, 2004, 22:41 GMT
Wouldn't "her" also be sexist?
Jim   Monday, April 12, 2004, 00:22 GMT
Yes, I think using "her" would also be sexist. Whenever I read such stuff I roll my eyes in contempt. Writing like this indicates (to me) that the author cares more about their take on feminism than they do about the subject at hand (unless, of course, feminism is the subject at hand). I think that such a use of words distracts the reader and thus should be avoided. Countering sexism this way can only make matters worse.

I think it's better to use "his or her" as mjd suggests (this can be extended to "him or her", "he and she", etc.). Other alternatives include "his/her", "him/her", "he/she". Of course, the feminist might still complain that I'm putting the masculine form first thus still being sexist. I'd reject such a claim for one of them has to go first (if you're using forms like these). Putting the feminine form first would still contain hints of feminism (to me).

How then do you get around this? I often use "(s)he". This is good because it doesn't put one before the other but it's only good for the object pronoun. You could argue that new words should be invented. I've seen suggestions such as "heshe", "shim", "shis", "herm", "hiser", etc. However, none of these have really become mainstream. So, probably the best option, I think, is to use "they", "them", "their", "theirself" and "those".
Jim   Monday, April 12, 2004, 02:22 GMT
Typo:

"this can be extended to 'him or her', 'he or she', etc."

not

"this can be extended to 'him or her', 'he and she', etc."
John   Monday, April 12, 2004, 03:08 GMT
"his or her"

"him or her"

"he and she"

The masculine form is suppose to go first just like ''ladies'' is suppose to go before ''gentlemen''.

''ladies and gentlemen''.
Jim   Monday, April 12, 2004, 05:27 GMT
There's no rule of grammar which says which goes first.

The feminine form is supposed to go first just like "lords" is supposed to go before "ladies".

"My lords, ladies and gentlemen ..."

It's a question of style. Would you want to choose a style which is likely to distract the reader from the point which you wish to make?
Lavoisel   Monday, April 12, 2004, 13:09 GMT
I wish to warn you that I'm going to be solemn in this post.
Using "her" instead of "him" is not very likely to disturb me, because the idea of sex equality isn't fixed firmly in society yet. The idea is much more popular than it was fifty years ago, yet in France (I'll stick to the country I know best), the acts don't fit the thoughts yet. A woman still often earn half the salary of a man having the same job. One woman out of ten is beaten by her husband. Women still provide seventy percent of the housework. The girls in the poorest suburbs must be as much discreet as possible in order the boys to leave them alone. Several case of collective rape and murder were reported these last years in that sort of suburb.
Given the circumstancies, I just feel glad when a man lets some hints of feminism in his texts.
But I'm not saying we male should always use this form, which, if it became a rule, would be a new form of sexism. However, I don't think I would feel oppresed by it, for, as I was saying above, male are not discrimined against in real life.

As for the argument that using a feminist style may distract the reader from the original subject, I'd answer that one cannot be NOT distracted when s/he reads, because what you read will necessarily evokes some other things peculiar to the reader. In the same way, a writer will necessarily let some hints of what s/he thinks in his or her text whether it's done consciously or not. So I don't think you should try and conceal your opinion, unless you feel it's ashaming, which would be too bad.

Jim thinks that "him" should come before "her" because one of them has to go first and putting the feminine form first would still contain hints of feminism. In my opinion, however, "him or her" and "her or him" can be used interchangeably.

But I wish to add, as a conclusion, that evolution of all societies towards actual sex equality in critical matters such as job is much more important than the feminist style of our language or the lack of it.
John   Monday, April 12, 2004, 15:00 GMT
Quote-''Jim thinks that "him" should come before "her" because one of them has to go first and putting the feminine form first would still contain hints of feminism. In my opinion, however, "him or her" and "her or him" can be used interchangeably.''

So, do you also think that ''Ladies and gentlemen'' and ''gentlemen and ladies'' can be used interchangably.

I think ''him;; goes before ''her'' and ''ladies'' goes before ''gentlemen'' always.

So, ''her or him'' and ''gentlemen and ladies'' are incorrect.
Lavoisel   Monday, April 12, 2004, 15:19 GMT
Your opinion is that there is a correct and an incorrect order. My opinion is that there is not such a thing. It's just a matter of taste. I admit however, that the order your prefer is more traditional.
Belinda   Thursday, April 15, 2004, 01:47 GMT
Lavoisel Friday, April 09, 2004, 08:49 GMT
Hello all,

I have recently come across the sentence: "If a person does more than HER share [...]".

Is the word "person" always feminine?

The word person does not have a sex. Maybe in this case the author just made a typo or something. It is usually written for example....."If a person does more than his/her share"
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Lavoisel Said:
"Jim thinks that "him" should come before "her" because one of them has to go first and putting the feminine form first would still contain hints of feminism. In my opinion, however, "him or her" and "her or him" can be used interchangeably."

I was always told when writing him or her to put the masculine form first.
mjd   Thursday, April 15, 2004, 01:57 GMT
"him or her"

"he or she"

"ladies and gentlemen"

We're used to hearing them this way. It's become a convention to place them in that order. There is no real rhyme or reason to it anymore, it's just what was used and what we're accustomed to.