Ll-, fl-, cl-, pl-

Xatufan   Wednesday, September 01, 2004, 02:45 GMT
Why did Spanish change the sounds fl-, cl-, pl,- at the beginning of the word? It changed into a weird ll- sound!

However, fl-, cl-, pl- still survive.

Llano= Plano
Llama = Flama
Llave = Clave
Damian   Wednesday, September 01, 2004, 07:40 GMT
Are we heading back to:

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllantisiliogogoch.....

......again?

Sorry, Xatufan! :-)
Xatufan   Thursday, September 02, 2004, 02:11 GMT
I don't know, what do you mean? I'm still naive and innocent, don't you remember that?!
Damian   Thursday, September 02, 2004, 06:45 GMT
Xatufan:

The LL sound is prominent in the Celtic Welsh language, and I was being a we bit facetious. That Welsh placename has featured in other forum threads. Apart from that, I can't answer your original question.
Damian   Thursday, September 02, 2004, 06:50 GMT
Correction:

For "we bit facetious" read "wee bit facetious".
Xatufan   Friday, September 03, 2004, 03:09 GMT
I love Welsh language!
CalifJim   Friday, September 03, 2004, 07:19 GMT
<<Why did Spanish change the sounds fl-, cl-, pl,- at the beginning of the word?...>>

Languages are slowly changing all the time. They normally change in a regular way, so that all pl- words, say, change to ll- (in Spanish), and so on.

The words that seem not to have changed, like plano, clave, entered the language from elsewhere after the pl > ll change had already occurred.

Another change in Spanish is that the initial "f" became initial "h": "hierro" came from "ferro". Later, words with initial "f" from Latin were borrowed by Spanish.

So which of these (essentially same) surnames is "older": Fernandez? or Hernandez?
Guilhem   Friday, September 03, 2004, 08:19 GMT
<<Another change in Spanish is that the initial "f" became initial "h": "hierro" came from "ferro". Later, words with initial "f" from

Latin were borrowed by Spanish. >>

I believe this phenomenon is of Basque influence. In Gascon, the Occitan dialect spoken in southwestern France and Val d'Aran in Spain, regions bordering Pays Basque, the initial "f" also changed to an "h":

filh - hilh
flor - hlor
femna - hemna
fialas - hialas

Other curiosities of Gascon is how "l" between vowels changed to "r" and final "l" changed to "th""

bela - bera
solèlh - sorèlh
aquèl - aquèth
bèl or bèu - bèth
fusèl or fusèu - husèth
Jordi   Friday, September 03, 2004, 12:03 GMT
>>So which of these (essentially same) surnames is "older": Fernandez? or Hernandez? CalifJim

It could also be due to dialectal geographical variation since the Aragonese dialect kept the initial "f" centuries after it was lost in Central Castilian and there are many examples of initial "f" in written early Spanish. Remember that the King of Aragon, Fernando (husband of Isabel of Castille) was called Fernando and not Hernando, whilst we have the conquistador Hernán Cortés (from Extremadura). Both of them lived roughly at the same time in the 16th century.
Xatufan   Friday, September 03, 2004, 14:09 GMT
<<The words that seem not to have changed, like plano, clave, entered the language from elsewhere after the pl > ll change had already occurred. >>

I don't think so, there are lots of Latin words that still have an f-.
CalifJim   Saturday, September 04, 2004, 05:18 GMT
<<I don't think so, there are lots of Latin words that still have an f-. >>

The change occurred in Spanish, leaving Latin words unaffected. Latin was already a dead language so these were learned borrowings.
Xatufan   Saturday, September 04, 2004, 20:51 GMT
No, what I mean is that there are still a lot of Spanish words that come from antique Latin and that have the f at the beginning of the word:

flama
flor
etc.