''q'' in English

qu   Monday, October 04, 2004, 00:12 GMT
Why is ''q'' in English always followed by a redundant ''u''?

i.e. quick, quack, quarter, question etc.
Jim   Monday, October 04, 2004, 00:31 GMT
It isn't: e.g. "Qur'an", "Qatar", "Iraq", etc.
Le loup et l'agneau   Monday, October 04, 2004, 00:35 GMT
In certain cases, that is simply because the words which are so spelt were imported from Old Norman French, Modern French or Latin (question, grotesque, quality, quest, query, queue, quiche, etc). As for the Germanic words, well, I suppose one would find it aesthetic to write them this way.
Jim   Monday, October 04, 2004, 00:47 GMT
In other cases the Normans changed the "cw"s of Old English into "qu"s with which they'd been familiar because they'd inherited them from Latin. In the days before the letters "u" and "w" the Romans used "v" but the problem was how to tell a "cw" from a "cu" if they're both spelt "cv". So they used "qv" (which later became "qu") using a letter they'd inherited from the Phonecians via the Greeks. For the Phonecians this "q" represtented a different sound but no such distinction was made in Latin. In transliterations from Semetic languages we still use this "q" for this distinct sound hence we have "Qur'an", "Qatar", "Iraq", etc. (with no "u" after the "q").
Bob   Monday, October 04, 2004, 04:56 GMT
qu, The ''u'' is not redundant but forms the diagraph ''qu''. ''qu'' is not pronounced the same as ''q'' by itself. If ''quick'' were spelled ''qick'' would you pronounce it the same way? I wouldn't.

By the way, I don't pronounce ''qu'' the same way that I'd pronounce ''cw''. If ''cween'' were a word I'd pronounce it differently from the way I pronounce ''queen''. Respelling ''queen'' as ''cween'' wouldn't work for me.

I pronounce ''qu'' as a single sound. A sound like a rounded [k]. Don't most people do the same thing. Jim, do you really pronounce ''queen'' the same way you'd pronounce ''cween''. In my accent the ''cu'' in ''cuisine'' is pronounced as if it were ''cw'' and the ''qu'' in ''queen'' is pronounced as a rounded [k].


I'm from Northern England.
Jim   Monday, October 04, 2004, 06:12 GMT
Do I "really pronounce 'queen' the same way you'd pronounce 'cween'"? Absolutely. I don't deny that there's a rounding of the /k/ but the same would occur if the word were spelt "cween" or "cwene" (as it once was). There is a rounding of the /k/ in "cuisine" and "school" too. It's an effect of coarticulation.
Mxsmanic   Monday, October 04, 2004, 06:57 GMT
If "qu" is such an annoyance for you, learn a different language. Students who spend their time complaining about the languages they learn never master them.
mjd   Monday, October 04, 2004, 07:10 GMT
As I stated the other day, the individual who posts these questions isn't learning English (he's a native speaker). It's just someone who seems to get a kick out of asking these types of questions.

How do Iknow it's him? That's easy...he never settles on one nickname. It's always a rather silly alias, but his "style," so to speak, is unmistakable.
Bob   Monday, October 04, 2004, 19:29 GMT
Jim, I think the difference between ''qu'' and ''kw'' in my accent as I was describing, is not really rounded vs. non-rounded [k]. But, that ''kw'' has a rounded [k] followed by a [w] and ''qu'' has a rounded [k] that's not followed by a [w].

I use [Q] for this rounded [k] sound.

Here's how these words come out in my accent,

Kwanzaa-[Qwa:nz..]
quit-[Qit]

See what the difference is?

So, in my accent there is a distinction between ''kw'' and ''qu'' but it's not rounded vs. non-rounded [k]. There both rounded [k]s, it's just that one is followed by a [w] and one isn't.

Jim, has anyone else told you that they make a distinction between ''qu'' and ''kw''.

I once looked up a ''qu'' word in the dictionary and they transcribed it with [kw] and I thought it was just that that dictionary was wrong.

By the way, I have heard people pronounce ''qu'' and ''kw'' the same. I think most people do, but in my accent there's a distinction between the two.

Oh, and also there's no [k] in ''school'' in my accent. I pronounce ''school'' with the same sound as the ''ch'' in ''chemistry'', ''technology'', ''loch'', ''character'', ''chord'', ''chlorine'',
''choir'' etc. i.e. [x].

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

I'm from Northern England, but I live in Scotland and my accent is a mix of the English and the Scottish accent (with a few features of the Welsh and Irish accent too).

'''''''''''''''''''''
qu   Tuesday, October 05, 2004, 01:00 GMT
Jim, do you agree that the ''u'' in ''qu'' words is redundant?
Bob   Tuesday, October 05, 2004, 01:16 GMT
qu, The ''u'' in ''qu'' is not redundant but forms the diagraph ''qu''. the ''u'' in ''qu'' shews that it's a different sound just like the ''h'' in ''sh'' shews that it's different from just ''s''. Without ''u'' you'd get ''qeen'' for ''queen'' which I'd not pronounce the same way I pronounce ''queen''.

''qu'' represents [Q] or [kw] depending on your accent.
Jim   Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 00:40 GMT
Do I agree that the ''u'' in ''qu'' words is redundant? No: it represents /w/. The letter "q" by itself never represents /kw/.
qu   Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 00:48 GMT
Jim, ''q'' by itself never occurs in most English words. The [k] sound could be just written ''k'' wherever it occurs and then we could get rid of the redundant ''u'' in ''qu'' words.

Quote-''qu'' represents [Q] or [kw] depending on your accent.

What's [Q]? I just looked on Tom's Chart and didn't find it.
Jim   Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 02:38 GMT
Tom never intended his chart to cover all of the phonemes in all of the dialects of English. Bob, if we are to take his word for it, makes a phonemic distinction that most of us don't make. The [Q] is Bob's own invention for this sound he claims to use.
qu   Wednesday, October 06, 2004, 02:54 GMT
''Tom never intended his chart to cover all of the phonemes in all of the dialects of English. Bob, if we are to take his word for it, makes a phonemic distinction that most of us don't make. The [Q] is Bob's own invention for this sound he claims to use.''

Jim, Why does he make the distinction, is it because he wants to sound like a minority or something? What words does he use the [Q] sound in? What phoneme(s) does he distinguish [Q] from?

I definitely don't use [Q].

Also, truespel has no grapheme for [Q] so, doesn't that mean that it doesn't exist (or elsewise truespel would've included it)?

''Tom never intended his chart to cover all of the phonemes in all of the dialects of English''

Why?

Would you have included all of the phonemes in all of the dialects of English if you were making a phonemic chart?

What kind of sounds are [Q] and [W]? I have no idea what kind of sounds they'd be?