Steve K or Mxsmanic?

Tom   Friday, October 15, 2004, 11:31 GMT
"We took all the most common 650 words in the language and grouped them"

Looks like you already teach phonetics. You just don't use the handy symbols.
Tom   Friday, October 15, 2004, 13:11 GMT
Trial and error is the method used by children learning their first languageā€”because they have no other option. I don't think anyone uses trial and error after acquiring their first language, as just about anything is more efficient than that. However, trial and error does provide perfect fluency, eventually, since by its very nature it forces the learner to experience and correct every single error (hence its name).

I'm not sure "trial and error" is a good name. Children imitate adults. Imitation is not "trial and error"! It's the opposite of trial and error!


"Most children do not speak their native languages perfectly even after a decade, unless they've been given formal instruction in those languages. And many people are still making mistakes after two decades."

I think they can speak their language pretty well; they may not be as good at writing in it. Written language is different from spoken language and those children who don't read books are going to have difficulty writing.
However, the fact that 10-year-old children who don't read have difficulty writing does not mean that an adult who reads will have the same difficulties after 10 years of learning a second language.

Simply: It is wrong to claim that because children take a long time to learn a language without grammar instruction, adults will need the same amount of time.


"One can acquire knowledge, but intelligence neither increases nor decreases significantly."

You can definitely learn to score higher on IQ tests. It's largely a matter of practice.

However, what I really meant was that, as an adult, I can use much smarter learning techniques than a child uses.
- I can read more.
- I can get more input per unit of time than a child does.
- I can see which phrases are particularly useful and consciously repeat them to myself or write them down, in order to keep them in my memory.
- I can notice where I make mistakes and get carefully chosen input which will help me eliminate them.
- I can choose input at the right difficulty level.

Because of these optimizations, I believe I can learn (without grammar rules) several times faster than a child.
Steve K   Friday, October 15, 2004, 14:27 GMT
Trial and error?

Imitating in a systematic and deliberate way is not trial and error and can be very effective. Grammar rules are useless until the learner has obtained enought input and understands the rules because he understands the underlying practice, by that time the rules are not really necessary, other than as a handy reference to confirm what the learner has already experienced and knows. Buy the smallest grammar book you can find and keep it by the toilet.

Language learning and intelligence?

Swedes and Dutch are good language learners. Are they more intelligent than Finns and Germans, not to mention Asians, Americans etc.
Steve K   Friday, October 15, 2004, 14:31 GMT
I am not a native speaker so I could be wrong but I would make Lustig and muss the outliers.

In English we had quite a discussion about "all, far, farther, ought" etc. When the distinctions are so small that even native speakers are not sure, they are not worth worrying about.
Steve K   Friday, October 15, 2004, 14:35 GMT
Tom,

You said

"However, what I really meant was that, as an adult, I can use much smarter learning techniques than a child uses.
- I can read more.
- I can get more input per unit of time than a child does.
- I can see which phrases are particularly useful and consciously repeat them to myself or write them down, in order to keep them in my memory.
- I can notice where I make mistakes and get carefully chosen input which will help me eliminate them.
- I can choose input at the right difficulty level.

Because of these optimizations, I believe I can learn (without grammar rules) several times faster than a child. "

I agree

However, it does take initiative. Too many learners are conditioned to want to be spoon fed, even though this approach has not been particularly successful. the first step is to try to induce the learner to take responsibility for his/her own learning, to want to read, to put in the time daily, to observe useful phrases and learn them, to write and have it corrected etc. The challenge is to turn the learner on and then induce them to discover the language.

How is that best achieved? Or is it just something that the learner either comes with or not?
Tom   Friday, October 15, 2004, 22:02 GMT
"I am not a native speaker so I could be wrong but I would make Lustig and muss the outliers."

Lustig, muss, and Bruch have the short /u/; the rest have the long /u:/.

It looks like you can distinguish between the two vowels pretty well. Haven't you ever had the need to write down the pronunciation of a German word or to read its pronunciation in a dictionary?
Steve K   Saturday, October 16, 2004, 05:45 GMT
Never. I just listen to all kinds of authentic content, and many times. I try to get they rhythm.
Boy   Saturday, October 16, 2004, 10:50 GMT
To Mxsmanic,

I tried to send you email at your email address but it has bounced back. Is there any problem with it? I have to discuss something with you in person. If you have free time for keeping in touch with me via email, please let me know. I'll write again.
Mxsmanic   Sunday, October 17, 2004, 01:35 GMT
E-mails should not be bouncing.
Tom   Tuesday, October 19, 2004, 22:15 GMT
Steve K,

Would you agree that studying the sounds of a language in a systematic way (e.g. listening to examples of each sound) helps you learn from authentic content more effectively because you know what to listen for?
Steve K   Wednesday, October 20, 2004, 00:01 GMT
I admit that English has special problems because the spelling is quite irregular. I admit that different people study in different ways. That said, I recently started studying Korean and Portuguese. In both languages the spelling system more or less matches pronunciation, although there are some surpirses. My major activity was listening and reading and trying to remember words and phrases.I did not listen to examples of each sound in the language. I always skip that part of any language tape. I try to repeat the phrases that I hear in my regular repetitive listening, especially those phrases and words that I have trouble pronouncing properly.

Perhaps I have learned so many languages that pronunciation comes easier to me than it did when I first started. I do not systematically practice pronouncing each sound. Frequent repetitive listening and reading just gradually makes it possible to imitate the pronunciation of sound and of the intonation.

Still, in our system we group words with similar sounds together in sets of five for the user to listen, record and compare. We used the most common 650 words. This way people reinforce their knowledge of the most common words and practice pronunciation at the same time. They also notice (we hope) that words spelled differently are often pronounced the same way. We use mostly the same words in a text which we have divided into sentences for the learner to listen, record and compare.

In our system learners select words and phrases from our content for further study and review. We use Babyon as the online dictionary but do not provide an audio clip of the pronunciation of a new word. I guess we could, or we should perhaps provide the IPA to help. We don't. Instead, since these new words have come from our content, we tell the learner to listen to the content as often as necessary to learn the pronunciation of the words and phrases they have selected. This forces them back to the content, which is a good thing.

I hope this answers your question. By the way how do I send you an email directly?
JJ   Wednesday, October 20, 2004, 05:51 GMT
Steve K, (or anyother person who has learnt many languages)
Sorry to go off topic but I wanted to know how long it took you to become fluent on average in the langauges you speaK? How much did you study a day and did you talk to native speakers often?
Steve K   Wednesday, October 20, 2004, 15:22 GMT
Unless you are dealing with a pictographic writing system like Chinese,the key problem is vocabulary.

You need to put in at least two hours a day of study.One hour should be repetitive listening and can be done in short sessions while doing other tasks or traveling. One hour should consist of reading and reviewing words and phrases. You need to do it almost everyday and a little more on weekends.The problem is finding more and more challenging content since most commercially available language systems cover the same boring subjects.

If you already know a language with common vocabulary (it does not have to be your native language)it goes faster. If you know French, Spanish, Italian etc, go fast. Three months is enough, but you will need to get a native speaker to talk to at least once a week. If you live where the language is spoken the time can be cut in half, since in addition to your two hours , you are surrounded by the language and are using it often even from the beginning.

To achieve fluency you have to talk to native speakers a lot. However, you can prepare yourself to a level where you can read, listen, speak and use the language acceptably. You are then "ready for take-off" so to speak. To achieve real fluency you need to be with native speakers a lot for probably double the amount of time listed below.

So I would say study time to "take-off" level.

English only to Romance language 6 months
English only to Chinese or Japanese 15 months
Romance language to Romance language 3 months
English to Swedish 4 months
English to German 6 months
Chinese to Japanese or Korean 6 months
I have no experience of Slavic languages
Tom   Thursday, October 21, 2004, 00:30 GMT
Steve,

I do not systematically practice pronouncing each sound either. Frankly, I've always found it a bit boring. However, I like to know in advance what sort of sounds I can expect in my input, so that I am prepared to listen for the differences which might be hard to notice otherwise.

Later, I like being able to read the pronunciation in a dictionary when I'm looking up a word. I like to add transcriptions to my SuperMemo items.

I agree that studying phonetics is less useful when learning German than when learning English (since German spelling is so much more regular). However, the time expense of learning a few symbols is not that big a deal.
Tom   Thursday, October 21, 2004, 00:33 GMT
About your question, you can just use the address given on the contact page or change "people" into "tom".