Too, to, two. Getting rid of the words ''two'' and ''too''.

Ghore   Friday, December 03, 2004, 22:55 GMT
Gay- ''gae'' (a male homosexual), ''gay'' (homosexual), ''ghay'' (happy), ''ghey'' (dorky or stupid).

football- ''footbaul'' (the sport), ''footbawl'' (the ball used in the sport).
Ghore   Friday, December 03, 2004, 23:01 GMT
''Should we write the auxiliary verb "have" as "hav" and the verb meaning "to possess" as "have" and the verb meaning "to be obliged" as "havv"? Should we write "right" as in "human rights" as "right" and "right" as in "correct" as "ryte" and "right" as in "right-hand" as "riet"? How about "stick" as in "twig" as "stik" and "stick" meaning "to pierce" as "stick" and "stick" as in "to put" as "stikk"?''

Think of how many different spellings for ''set'' we'd need if we did that.

There's nothing wrong with spelling all homonyms the same way.

Should we write,

pen - ''pen'' (writing instrument) and ''penn'' (enclosure)

drink - ''drink'' (drink something), ''drinc'' (a beverage), ''drinck'' (drink alchohol), ''drinkk'' (a alcoholic drink).

date - ''date'' (on the calendar), ''dait'' (go on a date), ''deit'' (the food).

fish - ''fish'' (the animal), ''fysh'' (the plural of ''fish''), ''phish'' (to catch fish), ''physh'' (the meat from a fish).

vacuum - ''vacume'' (a vacuum cleaner), ''vaccume'' (space), ''vakume'' (to clean with a vacuum cleaner).

one - ''wun'' (the number), ''wunn'' as in (something one will find there).

Gay- ''gae'' (a male homosexual), ''gay'' (homosexual), ''ghay'' (happy), ''ghey'' (dorky or stupid).


football- ''footbaul'' (the sport), ''footbawl'' (the ball used in the sport).

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Do we need all those distinct spellings? I don't think so. Nor do we need to spell ''two'', ''to'' and ''too'' differently
Erimir   Saturday, December 04, 2004, 01:10 GMT
I know we don't.

I was showing how absurd that thinking is. We don't need separate spellings for those anymore than we need separate spellings for "two", "to" and "too".

But thanks for providing more examples.
Keep spelling the way it is.   Saturday, December 04, 2004, 17:34 GMT
I say it again, keep spelling the way it is. KEEP SPELLING THE WAY IT IS!!!!!!! We don't need any phonemic spelling system. Traditional orthography is fine. We don't need any spelling reform. Spelling reform is flawed. There are so many different accents out there.

Here are some of the big problems with spelling reform,

1.It would look really strange.

2.Related words like ''nation/national'', ''photograph/photography'', ''please/pleasure'' would look totally different from each other in a strictly phonemic spelling system.

3.We don't all pronounce the language the same way. Some phonemes or phonemic distinctions exist in some accents but not others,

A good example is ''Mary/marry/merry''. In my American accent they're all pronounced the same way but in other accents they're distinguished.

Here's some other examples of such phonemic distinctions made by some Native speakers but not by others,

cot, caught
wine, whine
Barry, berry
fairy, ferry
caught, court
harm, arm
pull, pool
do, dew
don, dawn
hairy, Harry
pour, poor
serious, Sirius
shore, sure
father, farther
horse, hoarse
toe, tow
royal, roil
can (able to), can (the metal container)
tide, tied
an, Ann
hire, higher
flour, flower
tire, tier
soul, sole
groan, grown
thrown, throne
dough, doe
no, know
chord, cord
corps, core
war, wore
whether, weather
staid, stayed
allowed, aloud
main, mane
sail, sale
suit, soot
put, putt
eight, ate
buck, book
meat, meet
vein, vain
leak, leek
beach, beech
vain, vane
cook, kook
pull, pool
vein, vane
rude, rood
steel, steal
hat, at
coup, coo
road, rode
to, too
site, sight
isle, aisle
lute, loot
luce, loose
pause, paws
faun, fawn
lennon, lenin
yak, yack
bread, bred
lead (the metal), led
read (past tense of read), red
knight, night
mite, might
knot, not
dew, due
mews, muse
blew, blue
miner, minor
tore, tour
write, rite
wreck, reck
harm, arm
altar, alter
thine, vine
son, sun
gnome, nome
metal, mettle
coal, cole
gram, graham
bleu (cheese), blew
whole, hole
medal, meddle
paw, pa
bowl, bull
doo, dew
Rhode, rode
taught, tot
hall, hull
peace, piece
bus, buss
balm, bomb
meter, metre
wrote, rote
phat, fat
hole, hull
taut, taught
herd, hurd
Jim, gym
peer, pier
plum, plumb
ant, aunt
bite, byte
doo, due
break, brake
steak, stake
phase, faze
fir, fur
scent, sent
aye, eye
guard, god
hertz, hurts
shoe, shoo
wood, would
do, doo
cola, kola
bang, bhang
Jo, Joe
find, fond
rays, raise
cent, sent
law, la
chair, cheer
oh, owe
time, Tom
carat, karat
metal, medal
threw, through
rode, road
lock, loch
missed, mist
scent, cent
dole, dhole
stare, stir
psalm, Sam
qat, kat
Patric, Patrick
check, cheque
pen, pin
gee, jee
band, banned
heel, hill
rein, reign
sail, sell
ought, aught
tire, tower, tar
fisher, fissure
rough, ruff
hem, him
sign, sine
tenor, tenner
betta, better
boil, ball
oil, awl
bell, belle
mind, mined
lune, loon

It doesn't end there. For some people ''singer'' and ''finger'' rhyme, for some they don't. For some people ''hurry'' and ''furry'' rhyme, for some they don't. For some people ''owl'' and ''towel'' rhyme, for some they don't. For some people ''dial'' and ''tile'' rhyme, for some they don't.

Other examples of words that rhyme for some but not for others,

dinner, winner
hi, tie
antennae, cacti
liter, meter
foot, boot
fool, wool
squirrel, girl
steeple, people
yaks, tax
parallel, bell
where, fare
thought, caught
gnu, zoo
diaper, wiper
lose, choose
very, merry
this, miss
move, groove
soup, loop
gunner, scunner
simmer, dimmer
if, stiff
fruit, brute
libel, Bible
condemn, stem
people, steeple

For some the ''qu'' sound in ''quick'', and the ''kw'' sound in ''Kwanzaa'' are the same, for some they're different. For some the ''q'' sound in ''Qatar'', and the ''c'' sound in ''cat'' are the same, for some they're different. For some, the ''ai'' sound in ''aisle'' and the ''ei'' sound in ''einstein'' are the same, for others they're different. For some the ''e'' sound in ''re'', and the ''a'' sound in ''name'' are the same, for some they're different.

Other examples,

the ''ou'' in ''thou'' and the ''au'' in ''Krakatau''.
The ''ae'' in ''Gaelic'' and the ''a'' in ''name''.
the ''x'' in ''example'' and the ''gs'' in ''dogs''.
The ''x'' in ''xylophone'' and the ''z'' in ''zoo''.
the ''ae'' in ''faeces'' and the ''e'' in ''meter''.
The ''oe'' in ''foetus'' vs. the ''ae'' in ''faeces'' vs. the ''e'' in ''meter''.
The ''th'' in ''Thompson'' vs. the ''t'' in ''time''.
The ''ps'' in ''psycho'' vs. the ''s'' in ''sun''.
The ''ll'' in ''Llwyd'' vs. the ''l'' in ''light''.
The ''oo'' in ''book'' vs. the ''oo'' in ''good''.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

There are problems with individual words too. ''often'' can be pronounced with the ''t'' or without. ''route'' can rhyme with ''boot'' or ''spout''. ''herb'' can be pronounced with the ''h'' or without.

I pronounce ''want'' to rhyme with ''hunt'' but some others say ''wahnt'', ''wawnt'' or ''wont''.

They're are over 18 different pronunciations of ''caramel''.

''''''''''''''''''''''

I hate spelling reform. It's very unnecessary.
Sanja   Saturday, December 04, 2004, 19:11 GMT
I agree with this person above. There is a reason why the words are spelt the way they are, and there is a reason why "to", "too" and "two" are spelt differently, they mean completely different things and they should be distinguished. Besides, why is that such a problem, if you can distinguish them in speech then you should be able to do it in writing as well.
Keep spelling the way it is.   Saturday, December 04, 2004, 20:01 GMT
Sanja, I think spelling reform is a bad idea. We don't need any new spelling. Hoo wuud wunt too see u straenj luuking orthogrufee?

There over 18 different pronunciations for this one word ''caramel'' which is one of the many reasons why spelling reform is a bad idea. Here they are,

[ka:rm..l], [ka:rm.l], [ker..mel], [ker..m..l], [ker..m.l], [ke..r..mel] [ke..r..m..l], [ke..r..m.l], [k@r..mel], [k@r..m..l], [k@r..m.l], [k@r..mOu], [k@r..mul], [k@r..muw], [k@r..mow], [k@r..mow],[k@r..mo:l], [k@r..mo:], [c@r..m..l], [c@r..mel].

How do you pronounce ''caramel''? I pronounce it [ka:rm..l].

How strange would it be if we had over 18 different spellings of the word ''caramel''. If we were going to have spelling reform match all accents phonemically correct we'd have to have over 18 different spellings for this one word ''caramel''.
Keep spelling the way it is.   Saturday, December 04, 2004, 20:09 GMT
I pronounce ''caramel'' as [ka:rm..l], but that's one of over 18 different ways that it's pronounced by Native speakers.

Different accents have different phonemic distinctions. In my accent ''Mary'', ''marry'' and ''merry'' are all pronounced the same but for some people there's a difference. For them ''Mary'', ''marry'' and ''merry'' have the vowel sounds in ''gate'', ''cat'' and ''met'' respectively.

Also these pairs of words are pronounce the same in some accents but differently in others,

awe, ah
sore, saw
awl, all
where, wear
farm, form
balk, baulk
steal, still
heat, eat
hall, haul

In some accents ''bother'' and ''father'' rhyme and in some accents they don't.

We've already had a spelling reform, Websters. And only Americans accepted it.
Sanja   Saturday, December 04, 2004, 20:10 GMT
Well, I'm not a native English speaker, so I pronounce it "karamel"... LOL :) But I agree that there is no need for spelling reform, it would only make things more complicated.
Ghore   Saturday, December 04, 2004, 20:11 GMT
''There is a reason why the words are spelt the way they are, and there is a reason why "to", "too" and "two" are spelt differently, they mean completely different things and they should be distinguished. Besides, why is that such a problem, if you can distinguish them in speech then you should be able to do it in writing as well.''

Sanja, Are you telling me that you pronounce ''two'', ''to'' and ''too'' differently? They're pronounce the same and so they are not distinguishable in speech and they need no distinction in writing. The definition of a homophone is a word that's pronounce the same as another word.
Keep spelling the way it is.   Saturday, December 04, 2004, 20:17 GMT
''There is a reason why the words are spelt the way they are''

Yeah, there is. ''nation'' and ''national'' are related words. In a strictly phonemic spelling system they'd look different from each other and the relationship between them would be less obvious.
Erimir   Sunday, December 05, 2004, 10:28 GMT
So, in other words, all of you completely ignored everything I said about accommodating different dialects.

Do any of you have any objections that I didn't already address?

Or if you think I didn't adequately address the objection, talk about what I SAID instead of just repeating the same exact argument.

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone would be able to realize that:

néyshen & náshenel
fowtegráf & fetagrefí
plíz & plézher

are related words. Expecially when you realize that similar vowel changes occur in many words beside nation/al and photograph/y, therefore one would be familiar with such patterns.

So it's slightly obscured.

But other words would become more similar:

bayt and baytiŋ are more similar than bite and biting
tay and tayiŋ are more similar than tie and tying

Also, the things you're complaining about never caused anyone any trouble with the roots not being the same in the words "ordain" and "ordin-ation", "abound" and "abund-ant", "fool" and "folly", "receive" and "reception", etc. Did you ever get confused because you couldn't tell that "deceive" and "deception" were related? Probably not. Just as I imagine you would be rather unfazed by "neyshen"/"nashenel".
Erimir   Sunday, December 05, 2004, 10:30 GMT
Change that to "bayt" and "bayting", "tay" and "taying"
Keep spelling the way it is.   Sunday, December 05, 2004, 14:09 GMT
''So, in other words, all of you completely ignored everything I said about accommodating different dialects.''

Erimir,

How can you accommodate different dialects when there's so much variation out there? Here are some of the problems with accommodating different dialects,

1.There are over 18 different pronunciations of ''caramel'' made by Native speakers therefore to represent each dialect phonemically accurately we'd have to have over 18 different spellings for that word.

2.We don't all pronounce certain words the same way.

3.Not all accents make the same phonemic distinctions or have the same phonemes. There are some phonemic distinctions that exist in some accents but not others.

For instance, in the accent of East Anglia (northeast of London), pairs such as moan/mown, sole/soul, nose/knows, doe/dough, no/know, throne/thrown, throe/throw and toe/tow are not pronounced as homophones, as they are in other accents. Instead, they constitute minimal pairs, the contrast being that the first member of each pair is pronounced with a [O] vowel, while the second has [Ou] (Wells 1982 : 337). East Anglian English thus has one more phoneme than RP, etc, in this respect. Do you show a distinction between those two phonemes in your spelling system?

Another example is word pairs like Mary/marry/merry, fairy/ferry, hairy/Harry, carry/Kerry, Barry/berry etc. In my American accent there's no distinction between those words and they're homonyms but in some accents there's a distinction and for them Mary/marry/merry are all distinct.

Here's some other examples of such phonemic distinctions made by some Native speakers but not by others,

cot, caught
wine, whine
Barry, berry
fairy, ferry
caught, court
harm, arm
pull, pool
do, dew
don, dawn
hairy, Harry
pour, poor
serious, Sirius
shore, sure
father, farther
horse, hoarse
toe, tow
royal, roil
can (able to), can (the metal container)
tide, tied
an, Ann
hire, higher
flour, flower
tire, tier
soul, sole
groan, grown
thrown, throne
dough, doe
no, know
chord, cord
corps, core
war, wore
whether, weather
staid, stayed
allowed, aloud
main, mane
sail, sale
suit, soot
put, putt
eight, ate
buck, book
meat, meet
vein, vain
leak, leek
beach, beech
vain, vane
cook, kook
pull, pool
vein, vane
rude, rood
steel, steal
hat, at
coup, coo
road, rode
to, too
site, sight
isle, aisle
lute, loot
luce, loose
pause, paws
faun, fawn
lennon, lenin
yak, yack
bread, bred
lead (the metal), led
read (past tense of read), red
knight, night
mite, might
knot, not
dew, due
mews, muse
blew, blue
miner, minor
tore, tour
write, rite
wreck, reck
harm, arm
altar, alter
cord, card
thine, vine
son, sun
gnome, nome
metal, mettle
coal, cole
gram, graham
bleu (cheese), blew
whole, hole
medal, meddle
paw, pa
bowl, bull
doo, dew
Rhode, rode
taught, tot
hall, hull
peace, piece
bus, buss
balm, bomb
meter, metre
wrote, rote
phat, fat
hole, hull
taut, taught
herd, hurd
Jim, gym
peer, pier
plum, plumb
ant, aunt
bite, byte
doo, due
break, brake
steak, stake
phase, faze
fir, fur
scent, sent
aye, eye
guard, god
hertz, hurts
shoe, shoo
wood, would
do, doo
cola, kola
bang, bhang
Jo, Joe
find, fond
rays, raise
cent, sent
law, la
chair, cheer
oh, owe
time, Tom
carat, karat
metal, medal
threw, through
rode, road
lock, loch
missed, mist
scent, cent
dole, dhole
stare, stir
psalm, Sam
qat, kat
Patric, Patrick
check, cheque
pen, pin
gee, jee
band, banned
heel, hill
rein, reign
sail, sell
ought, aught
tire, tower, tar
fisher, fissure
rough, ruff
hem, him
sign, sine
tenor, tenner
betta, better
boil, ball
oil, awl
bell, belle
mind, mined
lune, loon
awe, ah
sore, saw
awl, all
where, wear
me, mi
sell, sail
farm, form
meal, mill
balk, baulk
quartz, quarts
steal, still
heat, eat
hall, haul


It doesn't end there. For some people ''singer'' and ''finger'' rhyme, for some they don't. For some people ''hurry'' and ''furry'' rhyme, for some they don't. For some people ''owl'' and ''towel'' rhyme, for some they don't. For some people ''dial'' and ''tile'' rhyme, for some they don't.

Other examples of words that rhyme for some but not for others,

dinner, winner
hi, tie
antennae, cacti
liter, meter
foot, boot
fool, wool
squirrel, girl
steeple, people
yaks, tax
parallel, bell
where, fare
thought, caught
gnu, zoo
diaper, wiper
lose, choose
very, merry
this, miss
move, groove
soup, loop
gunner, scunner
simmer, dimmer
if, stiff
fruit, brute
libel, Bible
condemn, stem
people, steeple

For some the ''qu'' sound in ''quick'', and the ''kw'' sound in ''Kwanzaa'' are the same, for some they're different. For some the ''q'' sound in ''Qatar'', and the ''c'' sound in ''cat'' are the same, for some they're different. For some, the ''ai'' sound in ''aisle'' and the ''ei'' sound in ''einstein'' are the same, for others they're different. For some the ''e'' sound in ''re'', and the ''a'' sound in ''name'' are the same, for some they're different.

Other examples,

the ''ou'' in ''thou'' and the ''au'' in ''Krakatau''.
The ''ae'' in ''Gaelic'' and the ''a'' in ''name''.
The ''gh'' in ''laugh'' and the ''f'' in ''if''.
the ''x'' in ''example'' and the ''gs'' in ''dogs''.
The ''x'' in ''xylophone'' and the ''z'' in ''zoo''.
the ''ae'' in ''faeces'' and the ''e'' in ''meter''.
The ''oe'' in ''foetus'' vs. the ''ae'' in ''faeces'' vs. the ''e'' in ''meter''.
The ''ch'' in ''chef'' vs. the ''sh'' in ''shine''.
The ''sch'' in ''schmuck'' vs. the ''ch'' in ''chef'' vs. the ''sh'' in ''shine''.
The ''th'' in ''Thompson'' vs. the ''t'' in ''time''.
The ''ps'' in ''psycho'' vs. the ''s'' in ''sun''.
The ''ll'' in ''Llwyd'' vs. the ''l'' in ''light''.
The ''oo'' in ''book'' vs. the ''oo'' in ''good''.
The ''m'' in ''prism'' vs. the ''om'' in ''blossom''.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

There are problems with individual words too. ''often'' can be pronounced with the ''t'' or without. ''route'' can rhyme with ''boot'' or ''spout''. ''herb'' can be pronounced with the ''h'' or without. ''because'' can rhyme with either ''buzz'' or ''pause''. ''literature'' can be pronounce many different ways. ''clothes'' can be pronounced with the ''th'' or without.

I pronounce ''want'' to rhyme with ''hunt'' but some others say ''wahnt'', ''wawnt'' or ''wont''.

They're are over 18 different pronunciations of ''caramel''.

''''''''''''''''''''''

I hate spelling reform. It's very unnecessary. Why do we need spelling reform. Traditional orthography best represents all dialects of English. Also, if we had a spelling reform all of the old books would have to be rewritten.

Also, hoo wuud wunt u straenj luuking orthogrufee eneewae? Ie shur wuudunt wunt too see such u straenj thing. Wie wuud ue wunt too see sumthing straenj such az xis. In wee reeformd xu Ingglish langgwij it wuud luuk reelee straenj indeed. Ol uv xu oeld buuks wuud haftoo bee reeritun.

Spelling reform is nonsense.
Keep spelling the way it is.   Sunday, December 05, 2004, 15:02 GMT
I say it again, keep spelling the way it is. KEEP SPELLING THE WAY IT IS!!!!!!!
Erimir   Sunday, December 05, 2004, 22:24 GMT
See what I said in the other thread.

And why do you keep repeating the exact same thing as if you had Alzheimer's?

You posted the exact same, HUGE thing in FOUR places.

Address what I said instead of repeating yourself. Or admit that you don't have any rational argument.

You say "keep spelling the way it is, KEEP SPELLING THE WAY IT IS" like you're a little child who's never been told he's wrong before, and now you're whining "I'M RIGHT I'M RIGHT I'M RIGHT!" even though you can't show that you are. Would you care to replace repetition and childish arguments with rational thought?

Rather than simply giving me yet more examples of pronunciation difference... show me WHY
1. the current spelling system is best suited to English, even better than moderate reforms like removing "gh" "kn" and "gn", the c/g softening rules, and extraneous letters like the 'b' of 'subtle', 'debt' and 'doubt' (which were never pronounced, but which were inserted by grammarians)
2. that we NEED to represent all pronunciation differences, or if it is acceptable that Cockney's not have their dialect fully represented, especially considering that things like pronouncing "three" as "free" is already not represented in the current spellings. How is keeping them spelled differently going to disadvantage them? It wouldn't make it any worse.
3. that all such pronunciation differences necessitate different spellings. Not all differences are phonemic

See my example about "writing" and "riding" in the other thread.

Here's a link for you too, http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j27/arguments.html