What are the minority language policies in your country?

Jordi,

I never said French must be spoken all over the world. When history reminds La grandeur française, that's about its past and everyone in France is conscious about that. No one in France expect the french to be spoken outside of France. Most of the french have the feeling their native language is french and must be spoken in France, they really don't care about the french grandeur which as i said refers to its past, like there has been a grandeur espagnole, britannique, espagnole...

You are catalan and you speak catalan, it's of course your right and no one needs to tell to catalans what to do. I don't want personnally other languages to be spoken in France but i won't never decide for the others. I was born with french and it's my native language, i don't see why i should learn occitan, what could i do with it? I understand why some people are interested about their past.

When i was in Paris, i met some basque people who were having a "Manifestation" about their identity. I noticed most of the young people were agressive with the people in the street. People is not responsible about it, some politicians are. If they want their independance, i personnally think they can get it, i don't care about that, i am french but i don't care about my nationality.

The situation is diffenrent in Spain (or seems because i don't know Spanish history, you must know it better than myself). Languages have not been erased like it has been the case in France. Now it's too late, and it's not because a fistfull of people who will change something.

I don't want to pay for these languages, i prefer having a good social security for everyone in Europe for example.

Dear Jordi,

You really ought to give the French a good serving at the following forum where you can witness their self-infatuation as you describe:

http://french.about.com/mpboards.htm

"No one in France expect the french to be spoken outside of France."

I would appreciate you told that to you French Ministry of Francophonie, which is still teaching Africans and Asians to speak French, although they speak another language at home. They even pay trips to France to representatives from all those countries, from all over the world, so that they may attend a "National Dictation" to prove French is a difficult language to write. I've seen the show (le spectacle) in TV5 International several times. It's all paid with your tax money.
And, of course, the French Francophonie officers get really angry regarding what happens with French in Louisiana (US of A) and send French teachers all over the world with your tax money, not mine.
Meanwhile, you don't seem to realise that if there are FRENCH parents who send their children to these "national French languages" schools it's because those languages are still alive. Are the French Catalans less Catalans than us? I doubt it! I've seen Frenchmen get really angry in villages around Perpignan because the natives didn't speak French amongst themselves! They couldn't believe they were in France nor could they accept it. The same applies to Alsace, Corsica or Gascogne but as we say in Catalan "the most deaf of them all is he who doesn't want to hear."

I have nothing to say to the french Ministry of francophonie, as i told you i don't really care about my french identity. I was just born in a country where we speak french and where occitan is not spoken by the majority of the people. Everyone knows in France french is less and less used in Asia and Africa. Most of the french don't care about it.

Some politicians want to keep french alive in Asia, Africa..., so? Most of the french do not care about that. We pay for that, so? I don't see where is the problem, if some african country want to still to speak french, where is the problem? If they don't want, they just have to reject it.
I have no problem about that. Some countries speak spanish, some others english...

You said : "And, of course, the French Francophonie officers get really angry regarding what happens with French in Louisiana (US of A)"

Like most of the french, i did not know french was spoken in Louisianna, i thought french is dead since 100 years or more. And i really don't care if they do or don't speak french. If some old french accademicians are worried about that, what's the point?

You have seen some french catalan being hungry, i have seen some who don't care. Why should they learn catalan if they don't care. You can't tell them, now you must learn catalan! If they want, they can do it.

Because i have some corsican blood, i can assure you less than 5% of them want to be independant, the other 95% feel absolutly french, it's the case for my grand mother, mother, cousins, neighboors...
You think differently, being spanish is different from being french. You are catalan and it's important for you, but for most of the french, being auvergant, alsacien... does not mean anything. They are french, you can be alsacian, auvergant, provençal... their common culture is the french one, that's why they are abble to leave together without having any war, conflict. Good thing

I haven't said a single word about "independence". I've only spoken of the right people have to have education in their native tongue, on their native soil and paid with their taxes. Why do you mix both things? Of course, anyone speaking his mother tongue must be an independentist or a bad Frenchman! I can assure you most Catalans aren't independentists although they are very proud about their national identity and language.
The fact is I answered because you stated, not me:
"No one in France expect the french to be spoken outside of France."
That is obviously not the case and France spends lots of your tax money, the one you don't want to be spent on regional languages, teaching French all over the world. France knows language is power although it is now a lost battle for them.
You say:"You have seen some french catalan being hungry"
I know you didn't mean that but I thank God we don't have to go hungry in France because we're Catalans. Being "angry" is already bad enough.
The fact is the French Catalans who can study in their language can do so because it's all being subsidized by Catalans on the Spanish side of the border, although they pay the same taxes you do. Normal citizens like me with no political power, I can assure you of that. After all, France is supposed to be the country of "Human Rights" and you might want all "regional" languages in France to be dead but they are not, not as long as the last speaker of a language dies, a language is not dead and some of them are still spoken by quite a lot of people in France.
Well I think we could carry on and on, but what's the use?

D'you see?, Nicolas is the typical stubborn french guy. France will never change her policy in relation with her minorities (officially there's no minority in France, only french citizens). It's a real dead end. i consider myself as occitan and, after that, french. In France when i say that people laugh at me!!! Now you understand why french gov has so much problems with its muslim minority (and also the black people)?
Because those so proud french guy cannot accept that other people live in the same territory as they and consider themselves different.

Nicolas, si sem agressius es pr'amor que nos escotatz pas e vos fotetz de nòstre morre. Tant de longa que chanjaretz pas vòstre comportament e vòstre vejaire, serem mai e mai agressius. Te pòts esperar aquò garçu!

Nicolas, si nous sommes agressifs c'est parce que vous nous écoutez pas et vous vous foutez de notre gueule. Aussi longtemps que vous changerez pas de comportement et votre vision par rapport à nous, nous serons de plus en plus agressifs. A ça tu peux t'attendre mon gars!

Visca Occitània liura
Gora Euskal Herria

Jordi said: >>I've seen Frenchmen get really angry in villages around Perpignan because the natives didn't speak French amongst themselves!<<

I find it amazing that even East European countries with strong nationalistic tendencies are ahead of France (a long-standing democracy, as I suppose) in this respect. There are efforts by nationalist parties to restrict the use of e.g. Hungarian in countries where Hungarians are a strong ethnic minority, like in Romania, South Slovakia and in some parts of Serbia, but it is acknowledged that Hungarian IS spoken there, whereas in France Occitan dialects are regarded as "patois" (I don't know what they call Breton, Alsatian German or Catalan). And yes, some Serbs (mostly refuges from Croatia and Bosnia) can't bear other languages being spoken in Serbia, lately there have been some really serious provocations, like a male and female student speaking Hungarian between themselves in Novi Sad (capital of Vojvodina) being punched by two Serb youths for speaking Hungarian between themselves, and things may have got worse had it not been for intervention by some passers-by. I could never get angry by a Serb speaking Serbian in Hungary. I once met a woman from a Serbian tourist group asking for direction in Budapest, and when I answered her in Serbian, she was glad beyond measure and even told me her name for gratitude. That's the normal way of things, at least for me.

Dear Easterner:
Everything that is not French is called "patois" although, of late, more and more "patoisants" (those who speak "patois") are realising the big lie they have been made to believe. Vincenç, who writes beautiful Standard Occitan, is not an only case. About 2 million people out of a population of 14 million in Occitania still speak the old language and many more understand it. It the 1930s it is believed over 10 million people still spoke the language. It is the biggest case of linguistic genocide in Europe and, probably, in the world, since Occitan gave us the troubadours and is the first medieval language of culture in Europe. No other language gave so much in Europe during the Middle Ages.
A "Patois" is far less than a dialect since a "patois" would be something like a "local degraded speech". The next thing they will tell you (without even speaking the language) is that people from neighbouring villages can't even understand each other. People will therefore immediately speak French to neighbouring villages although that has never fully been the case and I've heard people from Bordeaux in the Atlantic (Bordèus in Occitan) understand people from Nice (Niça) near the Italian border. Occitan is also actually spoken by 100.000 people in Italy and 10.000 people in a small Catalan valley in Spain (Val d'Aran). Need I tell you these are the two places where most of the children still speak the language?
The other thing they do is to promote codifications different to the neighbouring Standard languages, especially in dialects that belong to languages from neighbouring countries. Breton has more than one codification, Flemish in France is written with French spelling far removed from Standard Netherlands (Holland and Belgium) and is dying out. Alsatian is not regarded as a German dialect although young Alsatians tend to learn more and more standard German. There are two spellings for Occitan, there is one in Provence based on French spelling whilst the other is based on the medieval language and much closer to Catalan for example (more etymological). Corsican, although clearly an Italian dialect, has been separated from Standard Italian. With Catalan they also tried to give it a French spelling but the French Catalan all now write in Standard Catalan. It is obvious where the French Catalans look to and when Barcelona was chosen for the 1992 Olympics it was a major "festa" in French Catalonia although Paris was also a candidate. Few Frenchmen have been taught to bear that!
They will also our Catalan minority, on the other side of the border, that they don't speak "true Catalan" and that their "patois" is worthless. It's as if they told people in Subotica, your hometown, that their Hungarian was useless because it has introduced a few Serbo-Croat words and expressions. I take the trouble of explaining all this to you, in particular, because I realise you are an intelligent man who can very well compare the situation with what happens in Eastern Europe. France is the "most" nationalistic country in the world, far ahead anybody else. They will, of course, tell you they aren't, that they don't care, and that they are universal, but they very well know where their heart and pockets are and, usually, it's in opposite directions. Imagine a country where the capital city is called PARIS and the rest is know as "LA PROVINCE". I know no other case in the world where most of her people are considered "provincial" (therefore a "colony") by its capital city and by the provincials themselves!

As always no time to edit and I trust you will make out the mistakes yourselves (known, etc.)

Yes, that's true Paris has got the power all over France, what's the problem? Why would you want Marseille, Lyon, Toulouse or any other city having some power, they cannot. That's what make Paris so great (for me, not for everyone of course). I am originally from Menton (just before Italy), nice small city on the Mediteranean coast but there is nothing to do there, it's provincial and that's what i don't like. I like to compare New York and Paris, when you compare these 2 towns, you can find some people from everywhere. In other french cities, especially the small ones, people are usually close minded, borring, they only speak about their neighboors life. Of course there is the church...

So yes, i really prefer Paris. The rest is Province, that's true. And as i said i am talking about my feelings, i never said people do not have the right to use their own language, they can if they want.

As i said i really don't care about nationalities, if i was born in Germany, Spain... = the same for me. It's just i don't see the point to reuse these languages, and try to be honnest because as you noticed i never used the word "patois", as you said and as i knew we are talking about languages.


What i try to explain, and it's of course politic, Spain never had the same politic in the way they let people to use their own language, it's not the case in France. But who made the good choice, Spain or France? I really don't know.

If you wanted to access a good career position in the past, you had to speak french, those who did not could not.

In a country where people speak all the same language, all the people have the same chances, as you said and of course Language is power.

I guess you noticed people who have a high level position at work speak a clear and a perfect language.

Some people still use occitan, that's true but how do you want those who never used it to speak it as a mother toungue? I guess it must be a "natural" use, apprentissage. It can be in Spain for catalans, basques, but in France?

It's politic, France is a Rebublic not a Monarchy or a Federation, it's a point of view which is absolutly different. French unity has been all the time seriously considered in its history.

Dear Nicolas, le parisien au coeur:
I've looked up for you the language spoken in Menton, your hometown, known as "mentonasque". Maybe you've never heard it, and your parents protected you from it, but it woud seem there are still people speaking the language in Menton and the neighbouring villages. If not, a language that has been studied by university experts from different countries will have been lost such a pity. I knew about mentonasque before I knew you were from Menton, such a lovely place and I'm sure you'll agree with me.
Have a good time in Paris where I imagine you in a 5 star hotel, dining in superb restaurants and meeting glamorous people from all over the world.
You don't seem to understand that people can be bilingual without losing their original tongue and it's only fair to "when in Rome do as Romans do", although the "Romans" in Occitania are the Occitans and not the Parisians. A bit hard to understand but give it a go (try).
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentonasque
As far as your "provincial" point of view, where you prove I know France very well, I would like to congratulate the French Ministry for Education for having done such a good hexagonal job on you. Perhaps it will be Menton à la retraite? You know, once you're a pensioner since most Parisians seem to prefer the Mediterranean coast as part of their province. I hope your trips on the Métro will not be too long and that the beautiful weather in Paris in wintertime (six months per year) will not get too much on your nerves. With a rewarding job and international friends "Paris vaut bien une messe" (ou deux).
I go to Paris a couple of time a year. I, of course, go to one of those nice hotels and then come back home. I have no problems with my neighbours.

It's a beautifull place of course, but what else. Can you really meet some people? You always see the same, and i can assure you if you are too dark skin, good luck..., if you want to see a movie = difficult, museum = forget it, books = well you must go to Nice, Marseille, supermarkets = you must do it with a car... True i am a real "citadin" and i like it,

I prefer being in Paris, i have enough money to have fun, i don't mind for the winter because the weather is not a problem for me and i love the place.
About the métro, i don't use it the same hours the majority of people use it, i admit it must be boring.

Some people go for their retirement in Provence but not all, people usually from Bretagne prefer to go back in their native place, the same with ardéchois, auvergnats.

About neighboors, i expressed myself baddly maybe, but i prefer to leave in clandestinity than having relation ships with some people i don't really enjoy. When you go to the Boulangerie and the boulangère and 1, 2, 3 commères are talking about the lazy women who's leaving not far away bla bla bla, is it life or is it death, not for me. When you see the same guys having the pastaga and playing pétanque but never read any book in their life and read le Dauphiné Libéré, Nice Matin neawspapers...

No it's definitly not for me.

This is how is configurated the France, the province which can be nice but not like Paris.

When you say : "I would like to congratulate the French Ministry for Education for having done such a good hexagonal job on you"

Of course, i have been in french school so? Like all the people i am in a certain way a pure product of a culture. It does not mean i am not listening your point of view which is very interesting. I am conscious the people have different point of view, no problem about that.

My parents used mentonasque as you mentioned it when they did not want me to understand what they were talking about. My grand parents use it together but never with me. When i was at school, we all spoke into french. My grand father told me it was unallowed to speak in Mentonasque at school, the same in Alsace, Bretagne, Catalogne... good, bad? France is an artificial country...

As i said, it's to far away no to reuse it, maybe in 200 years french will be dead, so? The same with some prehistorical languages which are dead today, things aren't eternal and i can assure you i don't care if French will have to speak english in 2 centuries.

I don't speak gaulois and i guess we (europeans) moved so many times that on this period my ancestors were in the actual area of Portugal, Poland, Greece... so, my native different native languages are all lost.

What is te problem? I know where i am from, Menton but i prefer Paris.

>>You think differently, being spanish is different from being french. You are catalan and it's important for you, but for most of the french, being auvergant, alsacien... does not mean anything. They are french, you can be alsacian, auvergant, provençal... their common culture is the french one, that's why they are abble to leave together without having any war, conflict. Good thing <<

I must agree that the French have done an almost impeccable job in attempting to wipe out their minorities. I think it's really sad, coming from a country that fosters difference and prides itself on its diversity.

I love the fact that I can get on the subway here, in Toronto, and look at faces different from mine and hear languages other than English. I love the fact that I can get on a plane and be in Montréal in less than an hour, immersed in French.

I think France would be a much richer country if you indeed heard Basque, Occitan, Flemish, Breton, Catalan, German, Luxemburgish, Flemish etc. spoken in the street and if you saw signs and newspapers in them all around.

What I still find baffling is how dare the French government lecture everyone else on human rights so fervently, when they deny millions of their citizens these exact rights.

Outrageous.

Ved,


But they kept their differencies, most of them speak french but if you have a trip in Auvergne, you will notice different people, culture heritage... are different from the alsacian, breton...ones. x-mas is not celebrated the same in different french areas.