In AE adverbials like "already", "yet", "ever", "never" are often used with simple past,
even in contexts where BE speakers would prefer present perfect:
"I already ate lunch."
"Did you talk to XY yet?"
"Did you ever hear that?"
"I never said that."
This is nothing new and has already been stated by many grammar books.
Anyway, if anything I've never read a convincing explanation for this.
Does anybody have any ideas on this?
AE speakers, why would you prefer the simple past here?
As an AE speaker, I can't tell you _why_ something sounds correct.
Maybe you can say why BE speakers prefer not to use the simple
past in those sentences?
''USAGE NOTE just, already and yet
In formal or written English, you must use these words with present perfect tense: I've already seen him. / The bell has just rung. / Have you eaten yet? However, in informal speech, we often use these words with the simple past tense: I already saw him. / The bell just rang / Did you eat yet?'' (Longman Dictionary of American English)
I'm not exactly sure why, but in languages that have a present perfect form as well as a simple past (mostly European languages), it's common for there to be dialectal variation in terms of preference for one over the other.
For example, standard French prefers the present perfect to the point that the simple past has become a literary form hardly ever used in conversation, but it wasn't always that way...before the national dominance of what is now considered "standard French" many French dialects continued to use the simple past in normal conversation (anyone know if there are still some areas that continue to use the simple past in normal conversation in France?).
In Spanish, there are regional preferences, too...I spent a semester studying abroad in Argentina last year and Argentine Spanish definitely prefers the simple past, to the point that the present perfect is rarely heard in daily conversation ("fuiste a Europa?" can mean "have you been to Europe?" as well as "did you go to Europe?" depending on context). However, in Mexico you can hear the present perfect quite often in daily speech, along with the simple past.
In North American English both are still used in daily conversation, but in some cases the simple past is preferred. It's common for the same speaker to interchange both forms. However, there are still many cases in NAE that require the present perfect, even in the most informal of speech.
Unlike Argentine Spanish, in NAE "have you been to Europe?" has not merged semantically with "did you go to Europe?", which implies a specific incidence. This was made apparent to me when Argentines who wanted to practice their English with me would ask me things in English like "did you go to Miami?", and my initial instinct was to respond with "when?", when of course they really weren't asking about a specific time, but only if I had ever gone there before.
Thanks so far.
As far as I know in Standard English [whatever that exactly is] the rules are roughly speaking:
Simple Past is used when you refer to a specific time in the past when something happens,
and there is a some sort of gap between its completion and and the present moment.
Present Perfect is used when you refer to the time period up to present moment
and the exact time something happens is undefined.
I understand the examples above to refer to the time period up to present moment
and the exact time of the actions is not relevant, so Standard English calls for Present Perfect here:
"I already ate lunch."
"I've already eaten lunch."
"Did you talk to XY yet?"
"Have you talked to XY yet?"
"Did you ever hear that?"
"Have you ever heard that?"
"I never said that."
"I've never said that.".
It seems like these adverbials have some sort of correcting function here,
like transporting the idea of the time period up to the present moment. Is that so?
AE speakers, what would be your preferences here?
Any ideas on why the simple past may be prefered here?
BE speakers, in these examples how does the simple past sound to your ear?
My AE view is that the simple past is fine in all of those sentences,
depending on the connotation of the speaker.
For each action (eating lunch, going to the store, etc),either I did it or I
didn't do it. The addition of an adverb doesn't change this fact. So
either I did it or I didn't do it yet (i.e. up to the present moment).
Either I said it (in the past) or I never said it.
If you say "I have already eaten lunch" you are, as Jens said,
pulling the time frame to the present. You are using 'have eaten lunch'
as a description of yourself. If you say 'I didn't eat lunch yet' you
are thinking of all the moments in the past, when you could have eaten
lunch, and saying that at each of those moments you didn't perform a
certain action -- eating lunch.
There is a certain connotation as well. 'I never said it' would imply that
you no longer have the opportunity to say it. 'I have never said it'
implies you may yet have a chance to tell someone. I think that even BE
speakers would use this distinction. Suppose I ask you if you ever told
a deceased person something. Would a BE speaker really say
"I have never told her"?
I would prefer the 'have' form for an action which I expect to be done
soon, or with some urgency. "Have you put out the fire yet?"
Thank you, D,
you wrote:
> There is a certain connotation as well.
> 'I never said it' would imply that you no longer have the opportunity to say it.
> 'I have never said it' implies you may yet have a chance to tell someone.
Is this always true, or is this just a connotation that might be there?
I mean, if I still have the opportunity to do something,
do I have to use the present perfect, or does simple past work here as well?
Another example:
A says: "But you said you'd do this."
B says: "I never said that."
Do you think "I've never said that." would be better here?
If somebody says "Did you ever hear that?",
does that mean if you haven't heard it by now, you're definitely not going to hear it?
Here comes another tricky one (for me):
When talking about experiences you can e.g. say: "I've been to NYC.".
What about places that don't exist any more?
Is it still possible to say: "I've been to the WTC." or "I've seen the WTC."?
This is a quite subtle subject. Here are my thoughts,
but remember that I am just talking about preferences,
rather than about rules.
>A says: "But you said you'd do this."
>B says: "I never said that."
>Do you think "I've never said that." would be better
>here?
From my AE point of view, the exchange between A
and B is perfectly good, and would become incorrect
if B said "I've never said that". A is asking B
about past behavior -- did he or didn't he say something.
So B needs to phrase his response in a past tense.
Now, if A said "You said for ten years you were married"
and B wanted to emphasize his disagreement, he might
say "I have never said that". This is because B is
telling A that never even once did he say it.
>If somebody says "Did you ever hear that?",
>does that mean if you haven't heard it by now, you're >definitely not going to hear it?
It certainly has that connotation. For example,
"Did you ever hear Ray Charles play live" sounds much
better to me than "Have you ever heard Ray Charles play live" now that Ray Charles has died.
>When talking about experiences you can e.g. say: "I've >been to NYC.". What about places that don't exist any >more? Is it still possible to say: "I've been to the >WTC." or "I've seen the WTC."?
In my AE dialect, you I would say "I saw the WTC" or
"I went to the WTC" or "I never went to the WTC". I
would find the sentence "I have never seen the WTC"
puzzling. Just like "I have never met Louis XIV"
which, if I understand correctly, is unremarkable
as a BE sentence.
Thanks, that was fast.
It's the subtleties I'm after.
> It certainly has that connotation.
> For example, "Did you ever hear Ray Charles play live" sounds much better to me
> than "Have you ever heard Ray Charles play live" now that Ray Charles has died.
Agreed, but what about the other way around?
Does "Did you ever hear 3 Doors Down play live?" suggest the band doesn't exist any more,
or is it just an alternative way of saying "Have you ever heard 3 Doors Down play live?"?
Which one would you choose? Any idea why? [This band still exists, BTW ;-)]
> Now, if A said "You said for ten years you were married"
> and B wanted to emphasize his disagreement,
> he might say "I have never said that".
> This is because B is telling A that never even once did he say it.
I guess I'd understand this if you'd written "You've said ..." instead of "You said ...".
Doesn't the latter disconnect the statement from the present and call for simple past?
I don't see much of a difference to the first example.
>Does "Did you ever hear 3 Doors Down play live?" suggest the band
>doesn't exist any more, or is it just an alternative way of saying "Have
>you ever heard 3 Doors Down play live?"?
Since the band is still around...
The question with 'did' implies that I had a chance to see them.
The question is thus whether I took my chance. If the question used
'have' then there would be no implication that I had an opportunity to
see them.
For example:
Did you see the Louvre while you were in Paris?
Have you ever seen a shooting star?
Even in AE it would be strange to ask someone
'did you ever see...' instead of 'have you ever seen...'
with no context. The use of 'did' in this context is
more common in some AE dialects then others.
> "You said for ten years you were married"
If those ten years stopped before the present moment,
then I would use the simple past. This must be the same
in BE.
le vent souffle toujours sur les plaines de la Flandre occidentale ...
>>Suppose I ask you if you ever told
a deceased person something. Would a BE speaker really say
"I have never told her"? <<
No. A British speaker would also say "I never told her".
Thanks again.
One more question:
I guess you said that "Have you ... yet?" implies more urgency than "Did you ... yet?".
Would you say that Simple Past in questions like this is a more tentative way of asking questions, and that Present Perfect could sometimes be interpreted you're being a little nosey?
Could this apply to questions like "Have/Did you ever ...?" as well?
Further questions:
I’m having problems choosing the correct tense in the following standard situation:
Let’s say A promises B to talk to X.
Some time later B wants an update on this:
a) B says: Did you talk to X?
b) B says: Have you talked to X?
What the difference? What are the implications in either case?
Any differences in what B is expecting to hear?
Specifically:
Does B in a) suggest that there was [there has been?] an opportunity for A to talk to X meanwhile,
and that he wants to know whether or not A took this opportunity?
Does B in variant b) suggest that he doesn’t know whether or not there was [there has been?] an opportunity for A to talk to X meanwhile, and, if there was, that he wants to know whether or not A took this opportunity?
Does B in a) suggest that, if there wasn’t the opportunity, there won’t be another opportunity?
Does B in b) suggest that, if there wasn’t the opportunity, there will probably be another opportunity?
BTW: Please correct my questions if the tenses used are incorrect, i.e. what’s better, … or […]?
What could be answers of A?
a) i) Yes, I did.
a) ii) No, I didn’t.
a) iii) Yes, I have.
a) iv) No, I haven’t.
b) i) Yes, I did.
b) ii) No, I didn’t.
b) iii) Yes, I have.
b) iv) No, I haven’t.
What would be the implications?
>Let’s say A promises B to talk to X.
>Some time later B wants an update on this:
>a) B says: Did you talk to X?
>b) B says: Have you talked to X?
These mean the same thing in AE. There's not any
appreciable difference without additional context.
It is true that if A has some reason to expect A to have
spoken with X then B will use form (a); this is an
example of additional context.
There's no difference in meaning among the possible
answers for A.