question about accent for native speakers

Chamonix   Monday, February 28, 2005, 18:35 GMT
I heard this: "My son speaks English very well, he doesn't have an accent".
How do you native speakers of American English see a person with an accent?
I'm not talking about British accent. If somebody speaks English gramatically correct, can you say that his/her English is not that good, or even perfect because of the accent? If that person is understood, let's say most of the time, can you still say that his/her English is not that good?

Thank you
mjd   Monday, February 28, 2005, 20:08 GMT
A person can speak English perfectly fine and have an accent. It has nothing to do with grammar.
Chamonix   Monday, February 28, 2005, 21:05 GMT
MJD,

Thank you for answering me and I can tell you that I agree with you, but I would like to hear some opinions from native born Americans.

P.S. I'm not trying to be rude, but as far as I know you are from Europe.
Thank you one more time.
Jim   Monday, February 28, 2005, 23:43 GMT
A person cannot speak English at all without an accent. Mjd is an American but I'm not so why not ignore me?
Deborah   Monday, February 28, 2005, 23:48 GMT
If I say someone speaks English well, it usually means the person's speech is grammatically correct (or at least as correct as a native speaker's) and has a high degree of fluency. The accent is something separate. If the person doesn't have a foreign accent, I'd just say that he doesn't have an accent. If a person has a very stong accent, it can be difficult to realize that he's actually speaking the language correctly. I know some people who have that problem. I've rarely heard people who speak without an accent but aren't fluent.
Mxsmanic   Monday, February 28, 2005, 23:50 GMT
Accent isn't very important. An accent is whatever errors or anomalies remain in pronunciation after all the phonemic elements of a language have been mastered, grossly. However, the dividing line between phonemic and merely phonetic is a moving one, depending on the circumstances. A thick accent may not impede comprehension under normal circumstances, but in marginal situations (while speaking over a bad telephone connection, for example) it may become an issue.

I usually make a distinction between accent and general competency. Some people are excellent, fluent English speakers and yet they still have strong accents. Others have no accent but make some pretty egregious mistakes in grammar and vocabulary when speaking.
Deborah   Monday, February 28, 2005, 23:51 GMT
The reason for my last statement is that most people will retain some degree of a foreign accent unless that learned to speak English at such an early age that they will also be absolutely fluent.
Jim   Monday, February 28, 2005, 23:55 GMT
Assuming that their grammar, vocabulary, choice of words, etc. were all good and it was only a question of pronunciation then as long as the speaker is easy to understand then I'd say they speak English well no matter whether their accent is foreign or native speaker but I'm still not American so ...
Jim   Monday, February 28, 2005, 23:58 GMT
I assume Mxsmanic means "foreign accent" when he writes "accent". A native speaker's accent is not "whatever errors or anomalies remain in pronunciation after all the phonemic elements of a language have been mastered, grossly."
Chamonix   Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 00:54 GMT
Jim,

I thought mjd was from Poland, because he is the moderator. At least that's what I found on the homepage about this site.

Thanks to the ones who've answered me so far.
Jim   Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 01:42 GMT
No, Tom's from Poland. Tom has a gold star. Mjd is just a lowly moderator. Tom is it webmaster. There's also Michael too who's a Polish webmaster but he's rarely ever seen (even compared to Tom).
Travis   Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 01:50 GMT
Mxsmanic, you're only speaking of "accent" in the sense of non-native speakers of a given language, which in that case, yes, "accent" is due to features of the phonological system of said individual's native language getting imposed on top of the phonology of whatever second language is in question. However, "accent" in the case of a native speaker is a whole different nature, as that's a matter more of dialect than simply quirks in phonology due to influence from a foreign language.

In the case of native speakers, you can have the same words pronounced with wholly different sequences of phonemes altogether, different phonemic systems to boot (not just slightly differently pronounced versions of the same phonemic system), various phonological process on a suprasegmental level, linked to different patterns of assimilation and elision, including across word boundaries, and so on. "Accent" in the case of native speakers is just basically another term for the phonological consequences of differences between different dialects and registers, overall.
Tiffany   Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 04:49 GMT
This is a hard question. I myself am striving to reduce my accent in Italian because I see it as a drawback. No one ever tells you that you speak well unless you have an accent. If I didn't have an accent, they'd just speak to me regularly instead of interrupting me every twenty minutes to tell me that I speak well (because I can hold a conversation with them)

Of course if a person can be understood by other English speakers, his/her english is good. But I never view anyone as a perfect speaker of any language unless they could pass for a native.

I have a feeling that the person who exclaimed this about their son is not a native speaker of English and feels "accentless" (yes I know there is no such thing, but you know what I mean) English is the way to acceptance and is therefore proud of his or her son.
mjd   Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 08:06 GMT
Charmonix,

I'm a full-fledged native born American....and I still go by what I said.
Chamonix   Tuesday, March 01, 2005, 13:15 GMT
MJD,

Sorry for the confusion. I'm kind of new to this forum and I was under the impression that the "leaders" were just from Poland, but now I know the truth :).
Mea culpa.