In the recently-archived "Spanglish" thread, Kirk wrote:
"[M]y university (UC San Diego) is 41% Asian-American, 36% European-American, with a lot of the Asians having been born in America to immigrant parents. Most of my Asian friends even of the first generation born in America can really only speak their parent's language at a child's level, and many can only understand it. Those whose parents speak English well anyway are often least likely to speak their parent's native language--I have several first-generation Asian-American friends who can barely (or, sadly, not at all) communicate with their grandparents (who presumably moved over with their parents) because they really only speak English, and struggle with their monolingual non-English-speaking grandparents."
This was not the case when I was in school (1955-1967). When I was in elementary school and junior high school, virtually every Chinese student I knew attended Chinese school after regular school, and the few Japanese students I knew attended Japanese school. (In those days, in San Francisco, most of the Asians were from China.) Thus, they were all fluent Chinese speakers and tended to speak Chinese when they were together. My best friend was the only exception among the students I knew. She didn't attend Chinese school because she had to work in her parent's grocery store after school. I think this was probably why she was ostracized by the other Chinese girls.
I don't know whether Chinese students continued at the high school level, as by that time I'd completely lost interest in anything having to do with school, including everyone in it.
Does anyone know whether after-school Chinese schools still exist in the US? If they do, obviously they aren't as widely attended. It only just occurred to me that the Chinese schools of old were probably conducted in Cantonese, as that was the language spoken by most Chinese immigrants to SF at that time.
In reference to my best friend, I meant that she was probably ostracized because she didn't attend Chinese school, and not because she had to work in her parents' store.
Well, there shouldn't be any Chinese schools in the US. These people should INTEGRATE or get lost.
Not if they come to Canada. I mean, they need to integrate, but everybody is welcome to keep whatever makes them different, as long as it doesn't infringe the rights of others. Tolerance. What a nice concept.
Well, that is stupid! Canada belongs to the descendants of the British and the French. And all the others shoudl assimilate to those cultures. Canada is run by TRAITORS who are determined that the genuine Canadians - the Whites - will become a minority in their own country.
People should do what they want to do in so far as language learning is concerned. Most children of immigrants are more interested in integrating with the culture of their peers and may get interested in other cultures (including possibly their ancestral culture) later.
In Vancouver there are so many Chinese immigrants that often the peer group speaks Chinese. In our school system roughly 20% of the students in ESL were born here !
About 30% of university students do not speak English at home and are not confident writing in English. Many write very poorly. A university degree from a Vancouver university is no gurantee of English literacy or fluency. A sad state in my view.
As to the desirablity of American or Canadian born Chinese speaking Chinese, that should be left to the individual. It is no more important for a Chinese-American to speak Chinese (or Spanish), than for a Dutch-American to speak Dutch (or Chinese). I feel there is far too much pressure on the 'visible minority' kids to speak the ancestral language. This is an unfortunate result of the multicultural acitivism of certain ethnic leaders and whole cackle of do-gooders.
Ved and prevalent Canadian mythmaking notwithstanding, Canada is no different than the US in this regard. Integration is the dominant reality while multiculturalism is the preferred ideology of the self- proclaimed liberal elite of teachers, polticians, oh so enlightened lawyers, ethnic leaders and many in the media.
Language learning has to be up to the individual. My own preference is that children first integrate with the broader culture and learn the local language and learn to feel that their in-group includes people of all origins. Learning the ancestral language is an option but not necessarily more virtuous than learning any other language.
Unfortunately, multiculturalism and promoting 'diversity' is often a cover word for denigrating the mainstream and promoting ethnic separation,ethnic entitlement and a host of other stresses in society that result in reduced solidarity and reduced tolerance.
DJW's obvious trolling notwithstanding (it's amusing to note that of course original Canadians are not whites....rather the First Nations Peoples, but that's neither here nor there), I think this is a fascinating discussion.
Steve K, I totally agree that language learning shoudl be up to the individual, and it is unfortunate that many visible minorities feel the pressures to speak a heritage language rather than nonvisible (i.e. Chinese-Canadian vs. Dutch-American)--great point. However, I somewhat disagree with your assessment of multiculturalism and diversity in your closing paragraph. As a person of English, Irish, African, and Cherokee ancestry living in the United States, I feel that there is a definite need for dialogue and cultural preservation in the face of continuous assimilation. Assimilation often seems to mask the idea of creating an entire group of people that emulate European norms and values; rather, shouldnt' all factors be accomdated? I love the idea of North America (USA and Canada; Mexico notwithstanding here) as a salad rather a melting pot; in a salad, various distinct items amke a complete unit, rather than in a melting pot, where all differences must be melted into one dominant reality. But that's just my thought on that. =)
There's a name for this "salad" model here, in Canada. It's often referred to as the Canadian mosaic/le mosaïque canadien.
Yes there are still Chinese schools. I've also heard of Japanese, Korean, and Hebrew schools. I've had friends who've attended all of them. For the Asian language schools, most of my friends were forced to attend by their parents from elementary school age up. Most of them didn't really have much interest and didn't really learn much in the way of writing and reading despite all the years. Most did have good proficiency in the spoken language, although it was attributed to the fact they're parents spoke it at home.
I live in the SF Bay Area in California.
*oops...their
I should add that my 3rd+ generation friends who attended didn't learn reading/writing or spoken language.
There is nothing wrong with assimilation, only with forced assimilation. In fact assimilation is the norm. Today the majority of Norm Americans are assimilated to the dominant culture, regardless of their origins. WE also see "Latinos" who are of European, African, Indio, Arab and other origins. They differ in terms of the country they are from, rather than the country of their ancestors, as far as I can tell. Canada is no more or less of a mosaic or melting pot than the US despite what official propaganda and people like Ved would have you believe.No difference.
The natural tendency towards assimilation should normally overcome the poltically correct pressures of the elite. However, recent events in Europe make me wonder. The official pro-segretation policies (i.e. Multiculturalism) send the wrong message.
Those of us who believe in the advantages of the melting pot, of integration, should speak up. Assimilation is good. An assimilated person sees everyone as potentially part of his in-group and does not eliminate people from his in-group based on race or ethnicity.
None of this prevents people from being interested in whatever culture they like. In fact if every place becomes multicultural we will lose all original cultures. Let North American culture, with all its warts and blemishes, have pride of place in its homeland.
Thanks, canaws. I think the majority of kids attending Chinese school in my day were 1st generation Americans. My best friend, who, as I said, was the only Chinese girl I knew who didn't go to Chinese school, was also the only one who hadn't a trace of a Chinese accent, even though she was also only first generation American
A lot of my Asian friends (especially Korean and Chinese) had to go to language school on Saturdays as kids and, not surprisingly, hated being in school on Saturdays when "everyone else" was out playing. Most (or all) of my friends who had to go to language school on weekends were native-born Americans whose parents had immigrated to America, and their parents forced them to go so they wouldn't lose the native language of their parents. In most cases, as I mentioned in my previous post, the results were mixed--my friends have varying degrees of competence in the native languages of their parents but what unites them is that they are unquestionably English dominant.
For better or worse, the old-country languages are generally phased out as the generations go on--looking at most Japanese Americans, who are often at least 3rd-generation by this point, the vast majority only speak English. My cousins, who are of half-Japanese/half-European descent, don't speak any Japanese, as their grandparents on their mom's (my aunt's) side, Japanese-Americans born in America, don't even really speak it...their great-grandparents had immigrated to America.
This phenomenon is fascinating to me, and the large numbers of native-born Asian-Americans in California (which is about 11% Asian...the US national average is about 3%) and at my university (41% Asian this year, as I mentioned before) represent the newest chapter in the familiar pattern of US immigrants whose US-born offspring negotiate (not always easily) the unique position of being Americans yet with living ties to the old country.
I guess the reason the kids in my day were actually fluent in Chinese is that they attended Chinese school more often than just on weekends.