Thursday, March 17, 2005, 21:50 GMT
I also agree with D. I'd use all formulations he's posted too in the ways he describes. There is a distinct difference in the usage of "got" and "gotten"
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Americans with weird past participles: you too?
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Thursday, March 17, 2005, 21:50 GMT
I also agree with D. I'd use all formulations he's posted too in the ways he describes. There is a distinct difference in the usage of "got" and "gotten"
Thursday, March 17, 2005, 22:11 GMT
Well, anyone well versed in English/American differences knows that gotten is undisputed and very common as a strict past participle in America. (What about Canada?) Idiomatically it's different: you can say "I've got $10" but that's not really using it as a proper pp. "I've gotten 10$", however, would just sound like an incomplete sentence. Apart from this possesive meaning gotten is used regularly: "We'd gotten as far as Texas", "Haven't you gotten rid of it?", "What's gotten in to you?" In UK English these would be patently incorrect.
I knew that "renned" was incorrect as it came out of my mouth, and yet it felt quite natural. I was just wondering if anyone else made lots of past participle slips. The best response so far was from Tom K who reminds us of "tooken" and "brang". I guess it's the logic of the Jaberwockky. I have a suspicion that "indo european" is hard wired into my brain (I can't speak for everyone) which makes certain grammer patterns instinctual. Just a theory.
Thursday, March 17, 2005, 22:53 GMT
I almost exclusively hear "snuck", no matter who the speaker...I've only rarely heard "sneaked" in conversation. I've never heard "squoze" before, but I have heard the very occasional "boughten". "renned" I haven't heard of, tho. At home I grew up using "drank" as the past tense and "drunk" as the past participle (same with "swam" and "swum"), but that seems to be a dying distinction, as most people I hear use "swam" and "drank" for both the past tense and past participle ("drunk", of course, is still used for the adjective formed from the past participle), altho I do occasionally hear "swum" and "drunk".
Thursday, March 17, 2005, 23:55 GMT
Travis,
I work in IT and never heard anybody saying mouses, but non-professionals. Why do you believe it should be mouses, anyway?
Thursday, March 17, 2005, 23:57 GMT
"Gotten" fell out of of use in England, but did not in the United States. Many of these past participles (like gotten) have been deemed archaic in England, but due to our colonial past, stuck around in the U.S.
Thursday, March 17, 2005, 23:58 GMT
Travis,
The Microsoft(R) Manual of Style for Technical Publications says: "Avoid using the plural mice; if you need to refer to more than one mouse, use mouse devices."
Friday, March 18, 2005, 00:01 GMT
I also work in IT and I would call multiple mouses mouses. They are separate from the animal to me.
Friday, March 18, 2005, 00:02 GMT
Of course, though, like most people care what, for example, just that would say. I mean, hell, around here the word "box" has taken on the meaning of "computer", and with the irregular plural form of "boxen" (NOT "boxes").
Friday, March 18, 2005, 00:11 GMT
<<Well, anyone well versed in English/American differences knows that gotten is undisputed and very common as a strict past participle in America. (What about Canada?)>>
'Gotten' is used in Canada in the same way as in the States.
Friday, March 18, 2005, 00:21 GMT
Why do I think that it should be "mouses"? Well, just because. Or if you want a more detailed explanation, well, it's because the word is often treated as rather separate from the word "mouse" for the animal, including with respect to plural formation.
Friday, March 18, 2005, 00:39 GMT
The US and Canada: Sisters in Gottenhood. See, we still have something in common!
Hey, give us some fun Canadian usage.
Friday, March 18, 2005, 00:40 GMT
Mice is plural for the animal, mouses for the computer device.
Friday, March 18, 2005, 12:30 GMT
The choice of mice vs. mouses is completely a matter of style, not grammar. I would use 'mice' unless I had an editor who required me to use 'mouses'. Both plurals are used in the wild; if you search for
"computer mice" and "computer mouses" you will see evidence that mice is used more often.
Friday, March 18, 2005, 12:55 GMT
Travis,
I asked you because I thought you might have known who came up with the idea of mouses. I think it's just matter of who says it, but I agree with Microsoft:they should ce called mouse devices. I heard people saying box instead of PC, but these people were just end users, with a very little knowledge of IT field. I also heard them calling the whole PC , CPU which I consider ridiculous, as well the box-computer switch. Tiffany, "They are separate from the animal to me." Of course there are many differences :)
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