I'm collecting some good examples of the English subjunctive mood. It doesn't matter if it's archaic, it's still interesting.
Arguably the "mood" is everywhere without any attendant form, but it's really only interesting when it makes itself seen: a strange little bleep on the linguistic radar. And mood helpers don't really count, like "might" and "should" ("should he die...") because there's no orthographic change.
Does the subjunctive ever sound natural in normal use, or is it always stilted? Some people say it's a class and age signifier. I know plenty of older "posh" types who would certainly say the following:
1. ...<Be> it large or small...
2. I insist that he <stop>.
3. I wish I <were> there.
4. That he <dare> say it is egregious enough!
5. Heaven <forbid>.
6. <Had> I but told her earlier...
7. As difficult as it <be>, it still has to be done.
8. If it <please> you...
9. It's important that he <know> about it.
10. <May> he find his fame and fortune.
11. If he <were> more assertive, he'd be more convincing.
God save our gracious Queen.
God keep our land glorious and free.
Long live the King.
Todd,
"Does the subjunctive ever sound natural in normal use, or is it always stilted? Some people say it's a class and age signifier."
The answer lies in what you said: it sounds natural in normal use to those of us who were brought up to use it.
As for numbers 3 and 11, do those actually sound stilted to most people today?
I heard what was, to me, a jarring lack of use of the subjunctive in a James Bond movie. In "The Living Daylights," Bond says, "I'm glad I insisted that you brought that 'cello." It really seemed out of place to me since Bond is supposed to have a public school education (isn't he?).
those of us who were brought up to use it = people of a certain age or class or both
In the US, "level of education" should probably be substituted for "class."
Bond is supposed to have --> Bond is supposed to have had
At least in American English the subjunctive, while still peripheral, is in more common use than in the UK. While some of the phrases listed there sound outdated, the use of the subjunctive may still be found relatively commonly in the US (even in the spoken language).
"If I were you" is the only way I -ever- hear that said. "If I was you" sounds horrible. But that's really the only case where the subjunctive is a must, that I can think of. Even 3 and 11 above can pass as fine without it.
7 and 8 are more than a bleep on the radar for me; I would have to send up interceptors.
The rest of the examples seem completely normal and not even uncommon.
I agree with Kirk here about the usage of the subjunctive in spoken American English; at least around here, it is still definitely in use, and at least for me, it is quite noticeable when someone uses "was" rather than "were" for the subjunctive of "to be", whether in writing or in speech. On the other hand, a lot of the subjunctives of words other than "to be", "to had", and the modal verbs, which still seem to be in general use here, seem to be rather limited to specific expressions and usage cases and like, overall, and still seem to have been significantly supplanted by the usage of "would". On the other hand, though, these particular cases have not been fully replaced by analytic modal constructions, either.
Whoops, that's supposed to be "to have", not "to had".
in Das Kapital as translated in the 19th century Karl Marx talking about a capitalist says "if he have a hobby"...
I would use the subjunctive naturally in all but 8 or 9. I realise I should use the subjunctive in 8 and 9 also, but for some reason don't naturally do so.
I hate constructions such as : "if I would have said this, he would have done that " instead of "if I had said this...." Is this an American thang?
Well, considering that the subjunctive is more used in actual speech in American dialects than your oh so perfect English ones, DJW, I doubt that it would be specific to them in any givne fashion.
hey DJW, do natives say things like those you mentioned?
I'm just learning to speak English and I know that it's not correct to say:
"if I would have said this, he would have done that".