Standard Irish English?

Jim   Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 04:25 GMT
Easterner has "wondered if for native speakers, a non-native speaking with the characteristic Irish or Australian accent would sound more strange than one speaking RP or General American?"

Ved's right. If you actually speak with an Irish, Australian, RP or American accent, then you sound native. However, it is possible for a non-native speaker to have certain features of a given English dialect. Hence, with a little re-phrasing Easterner still has a good point.

I really think, though, that it depends on the native speaker who's listening. To me, as an Australian, a non-native speaker with Australian sounding features in their accent would not sound half as strange as a non-native speaker with American sounding ones.

Then there's also the point of what sounds right in context. Here's an example. Japanese people tend to have trouble with /r/ and /l/. They also have trouble with final consonants except /n/. So why should they bother trying to emulate a rhotic accent? To me rhoticity in the accent of a Japanese person speaking English sounds contrived.
Jim   Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 04:38 GMT
Mxsmanic,

You say it would be a good thing if English dialects merge to something rhotic because this would better match spelling. Using the same logic, do you prefer non-yod-dropping dialects?

As for me, I'd rather they merge to something non-rhotic ... for no better reason than that that's my taste.
Ned   Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 07:12 GMT
Quite so, Jim. Rhotic pronunciation really grates on a non-rhotic speaker.

To the rest of us, the ultimate R is there simply as a guide to the vowel which precedes it: it is not necessary to articulate the R, as it has already fulfilled its function.
Vytenis   Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 08:58 GMT
Jim,

Is it pleasant for the native speakers if I, non-native, try to speak with their accent (be it American, British, Australian, Irish etc. depending on the native speaker) or is it better if I retain my native accent. Because when was in the USA, I tried to speak with pure American accent, but of course everyone immediately discovered I was a foreighner, so did it not sound weird to them? Maybe there is some tacit convention that foreigners are not supposed to speak like native spakers?
Paulus   Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 13:31 GMT
Hiberno English is the normal classification.

<<It sounds funny when the Irish speak. They can't seem to be able to pronounce "th".>>

also hilarious is the London version of the "th" which funnily enough sounds exactly like "F" in many cases e.g. "give me three of those" sounds like give me free of em. Germans tend towards D than th and others I'm sure mutilate the sound in other ways. The "th" seems to be the most difficult to pronounce for many nationalities.

<<Only some of them. I think there's a lot of Irish who can pronounce interdental fricatives. >>

actually a lot of them do I'm Irish and I talk that way and so do too many others in Ireland. I think in the spoken language it doesn't matter anyway - conveying your point, if you've got one, is.

The Irish language doesn't have the same number of dipthongs as English specifically the "th" was missing and still is in many cases.

Thanks for your sweeping generalisation Adam!
Ben   Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 14:15 GMT
"The Irish language doesn't have the same number of dipthongs as English specifically the "th" was missing and still is in many cases."

I might be mistaken, but aren't there some dialects of Irish Gaelic that pronounce "d" before slender consonants as the "th" in "this?"

"To the rest of us, the ultimate R is there simply as a guide to the vowel which precedes it: it is not necessary to articulate the R, as it has already fulfilled its function."

True, but this is problematic for many rhotic dialects. In British english, the "ar" in "car" is one of the only uses of the vowel "A:" (X-SAMPA). In American, if we didn't pronounce the "r," then the words "cod," "pot," and "cop" would rhyme perfectly with "card," "part" and "carp," since that's the vowel that we use for most "o" words. There'd be a lot confusion.
Jordi and Australian English   Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 14:51 GMT
As a Catalan speaker living in Catalonia and speaking English with a native Australian accent (I grew up in Australia and I did my primary and most of my high school over there) and I still sound mostly Australian with a somewhat hybrid British and "my own" cultivated accent since I tend to use somewhat formal, educated standard English most of the time. I majored in English, French, Spanish and Catalan.
I travel to southern England every year, I've got lots of British friends and I've been away "from home in Sydney" for a very long time. I remember many of the old phrases and bush songs and I've kept in touch with Australia (friends, radio and the Internet). I'm a great lover of Australian dialectology but I rarely use the most "local" items although I know them all (or almost). No way you can trick me mate!
I work in the tourism trade in Spain so I meet lots of native and non-native English speakers from all over the world. I'll tell you that the people who are most surprised "by my accent" are the Brits and Aussies on holiday. I rarely meet Aussies although some are ex-pats living in Great Britain also have a holiday in sunny Spain. I've also met some second generation Australians of Spanish origin who are more fluent in Australian English than Spanish (or Catalan).
The most intelligent Brits (especially after hearing me speaking native Catalan or Spanish) will always ask me: "you can't be Spanish? How come you speak with an Australian accent?" Others just can't make it out: "where in England did you learn your English?" When I answer Australia it'll be: "Oh that's where the twang is from" It's nice they are the bloody poms and when you have to hear that in some sort of scouse or cockney you end up wondering who's got the bloody twang.
The few Australians are taken back because they realise immediately and just can't seem to believe. One of them told me: "I haven't been back to Australia in 5 years and it's the closest I've been to home in a long time." I suppose our weather and beaches have also got something to do with it all but that's probably the nicest thing I ever been told. I'm quite proud of my modified Australian accent and since I don't live in an English-speaking country it has remained quite classic (more educated than general if you know what I mean.) 95% of the Americans I meet are convinced I am British but I don't meet so many Americans.
I forgot to say a few have asked me if I'm from South Africa or New Zealand. Since it's all in the southern hemisphere I can understand what they mean.
I have been teaching my two children English (they really learn in a local language school but I help them out). When a new teacher arrives they are always astounded by their vowels. They definitely speak English with a Catalan accent that includes some Australian characteristics. Guess what? Good on them.
Jordi   Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 14:54 GMT
A few mistakes. I've ever been told. etc.. As always it's too difficult to write quickly and to edit on this board.
Jim   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 00:07 GMT
Ben,

Yeah, that's an interesting point. I guess that this is one thing that is stopping nonrhotic accents from merging the vowel in "cod" with the vowel in "psalm" as has happened in North America.

Mxsmanic,

This brings me to another point. Do you prefer accents in which "from", "of", "cod", "lot", "cloth" and "dog" all have the same vowel?
Jim   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 00:17 GMT
Vytenis,

Yes, maybe "there is some tacit convention that foreigners are not supposed to speak like native" speakers. I'd find it more pleasant if a non-native speaker not try to speak with any accent but their own. A naturally acquired accent sounds ... well, natural ... but one you try to put on will always sound fake. You'll wind up sounding false if you go sporting a put on accent.
american nic   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 00:48 GMT
" I guess that this is one thing that is stopping nonrhotic accents from merging the vowel in "cod" with the vowel in "psalm" as has happened in North America. "

Maybe it's just me, but I don't merge those two vowels. Cod has the same vowel as father, and psalm has a schwa-like thing before the l.
Deborah   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 00:53 GMT
I don't think there's anything wrong with attempting to imitate the native speaker's accent, but there's a point at which you can start to exaggerate the native accent, and that's when it doesn't sound good. I knew a man from Russia who initially learned English with a British accent, and fortunately he dropped it when he started living in the US, because it was ludicrously exaggerated. For some reason, he didn't attempt that with an American accent. Maybe it was because he learned his British accent while he was in school, and when he moved her in his 50's, no one was pressuring him to acquire any sort of accent.

I had a boyfriend from Mexico who would tease me (nicely) if I sounded noticeably American when I pronounced Spanish words, but if, in my attempt to sound native, I overcompensated, he got a pained expression and said I should just speak naturally.
Jim   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 01:33 GMT
Nic,

That's interesting. I don't even have an /l/ in "psalm". I'll have to rephrase. I guess that this is one thing that is stopping nonrhotic accents from merging the vowel in "cod" with the first vowel in "father" as has happened in North America.

Deborah,

How does a non-native speaker know when their attempt to imitate the native speaker's accent reaches the point at which they start to exaggerate the it? I say just pick up the accent naturally like the Russian man seems to have done.
Lazar   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 02:55 GMT
<<In American, if we didn't pronounce the "r," then the words "cod," "pot," and "cop" would rhyme perfectly with "card," "part" and "carp," since that's the vowel that we use for most "o" words.>>

Then I guess I don't speak "American". Here in New England we have a *lot* of non-rhotic speakers, and "cod", "pot", and "cop" have *rounded* vowels.

cod = /kOd/
card = /kard/ or /kad/

I hate it when people assume that all 300 million Americans speak alike.
american nic   Thursday, April 14, 2005, 04:15 GMT
I do too...

If I dropped the 'r's on 'card' 'part' and 'carp', they would be 'cud' 'putt' and 'cup'. Yet again, I prove I'm different. :)