Ebonics is misunderstood

greg   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 13:54 GMT
"Thus, English has the largest vocabulary of any language, in part because it is the most widely spoken of any language".

It depends upon what you call 'the largest vocabulary'. The largest English vocabulary is 2/3 Romance, including rarely used terms related to science or literature. If you exclude science and recherché literature, the 'second-largest' English vocabulary thus considered would still be very Latinised as most of it was (re)created between 1100 and 1700, that is long before English became 'the most widely spoken of any language'.
Mxsmanic   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 15:36 GMT
By "the largest vocabulary" I mean "the largest number of words that could have separate entries in a dictionary." The total now, including all technical terms, is around a million. But even without technical terms, there are still several hundred thousand different words, far more than any other language.
Damian   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 15:59 GMT
First time for me in this thread as I have no affinity with it really and have not wandered into it. From the very limited contact I've had with Ebonics, as far as I'm concerned it is just what the title suggests......misunderstood...almost completely. An otherwise charming elderly lady with a smile a mile wide was serving me in a cafeteria not so long ago and she said something to me that was virtually unintelligible but I was lucky in that I guessed correctly what she'd said. Yes, I wanted it warmed up.
Bubbler   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 16:22 GMT
>>Capacity to understand what? You didn't make a point at all. And I can't understand you if you're unable to articulate yourself.

If you honestly find a correlation between my assessment of Ebonics and the German attitude toward Yiddish (as if it was their hated for a LANGUAGE that led them to massacre 6 million Jews), then you're too stupid to have a rational debate with. Is that articulate enough for you?

Mxsmanic, the real Mxsmanic, I completely agree with you. If these “enlightened” people are honestly going to espouse the belief that Ebonics is socially acceptable, they’re living in a dream world. Someone brought up the possibility Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice may speak Ebonics at home, and I wouldn’t deny this possibility though I find it unlikely. The point is, however, they do not speak it in their professions. Why? BECAUSE IT’S PRECEIVED AS SUBSTANDARD. In all likelihood, they wouldn’t have ever reached their prestigious positions if they insisted on speaking Ebonics. Not only is the dialect relatively incomprehensible to the general public, it makes its speaker sound astoundingly uneducated (even though that may not be the case).
Lazar   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 17:18 GMT
<<BECAUSE IT’S PRECEIVED AS SUBSTANDARD.>>

Ah, so in that case it must be bad.
Mxsmanic   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 17:22 GMT
I rather doubt that Powell or Rice speak Ebonics at home, although they might know something about it. As people become more educated and move away from the second-class lifestyle that correlates highly with dialects such as Ebonics, they have less and less occasion to use or learn such dialects. Upper-class black Americans speak normal English, just like upper-class white Americans. Having dark skin doesn't force a person to learn a substandard dialect of English.

For what it's worth, Yiddish has never achieved the prestige of German or Hebrew. It isn't really a dialect today, but it's no secret that it developed from a hodgepodge of other languages, and it just never gained the status of more established languages. People in Germany today speak primarily German, even if they happen to know Yiddish; and people in Israel today speak primarily Hebrew, even if they happen to know Yiddish.

Even so, Yiddish is lightyears ahead of Ebonics in acceptance and development. So, if it hasn't achieved parity with other languages after centuries of use, just what does the future hold for something like Ebonics?

Sometimes I don't understand why people cling to the very things that hold them back in life.
Lazar   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 17:26 GMT
<<So, if it hasn't achieved parity with other languages after centuries of use, just what does the future hold for something like Ebonics?>>

<<Sometimes I don't understand why people cling to the very things that hold them back in life.>>

So you would do away with minority languages like Welsh, Basque, and Catalan? They have not achieved "parity" with major European languages, nor is there any economic advantage to speaking them.
Mxsmanic   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 17:35 GMT
I wouldn't deliberately try to eliminate them, but I would do nothing to preserve them, and I would not encourage people to speak or use them. They are academic curiosities, not useful languages.
Travis   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 18:37 GMT
"Others may view my opinion in any way they wish. My opinion is fairly widespread, however. Nobody is taking Ebonics to the boardroom or the university."

Just because more people happen to believe a certain thing than another thing makes it necessarily no more right, or no less wrong.
Bubbler   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 19:07 GMT
>>Just because more people happen to believe a certain thing than another thing makes it necessarily no more right, or no less wrong.

Nobody here is arguing the inherent "wrongness" of Ebonics. I have yet to read one comment that ascribes a moral quality to the dialect. We're merely verbalizing societal attitudes, and the current attitude toward Ebonics is unfavorable. Stop trying to make this an ethical argument because it is not. If anyone has serious professional aspirations, not to mention a desire for general social acceptance, Ebonics will not serve them well. Now you'll say, "But that's assuming they can't alternate between dialects." No, it's not. Nobody indefinitely hangs on to numerous dialects. Seeing as though GAE can be used for both professional and social interactions, it eventually wins out, even if it takes a couple generations.
Travis   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 19:08 GMT
Bubbler, you misread what I'd said. What I'd meant is simply that just because a lot of people *believe* a certain thing makes said *belief* no more right or no less wrong.
american nic   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 19:11 GMT
If people have a problem with 'ebonics' because it is not spoken by a large group of people, then why don't Americans think the same of the various British dialects?
Travis   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 19:14 GMT
american nic, that's because such is not the actual reason for their views with respect to AAVE, but rather is an after-the-fact rationalization of such views.
Lazar   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 19:17 GMT
<<I wouldn't deliberately try to eliminate them, but I would do nothing to preserve them, and I would not encourage people to speak or use them. They are academic curiosities, not useful languages.>>

So you value money and majority acceptance over linguistic diversity. Pardon my Welsh, but fuck you.
Travis   Sunday, April 24, 2005, 19:24 GMT
Lazar, agreed completely.